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Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?
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Old 01 Aug 2008, 18:22   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?

Hey folks,

If you've read my recent Battle Report you have seen the list, and seen it in action as well. Here it is again:

Characters

Archmage Level 4, with Book of Hoeth
Magic for the game: Lore of Shadows

Noble (Miri) BSB, Dragon Armor, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Sword of Might, Gem of Courage.

Noble (Lothariel) Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Radiant Gem of Hoeth.
Magic for the game: High Magic

Core

10 Archers

17 Spearmen Full Command

Special

6 Dragon Princes 1 Musician, Banner of Ellyrion

6 Dragon Princes 2 Musician, Banner

12 Swordmasters of Hoeth Banner of Sorrcery

Lion Chariot

5 Silver Helms

Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Great Eagle

Now- in my gaming group we're sticking with 2K lists as standard, but I'm looking to really optimize the list. It may be a while before I can afford anything new (wedding was $$$$$), but I wanted to look forward to the future of a Take on all comers type list I can play for a while.

I should mention that I just finished (last night- thanks TO Chat!) 16 Sea Guard with Full Command, and I do have some spare character models (Teclis, Tyrion, a Silver Helm Musician and one Silver Helm, and a Mounted Mage) that I can swap in and out of the list, but I do need to consider my next purchases very carefully.

My initial thoughts:

- Book of Hoeth makes for a high powered, yet expensive and unstable mage. I may change the wargear for more stable items (like being able to choose spells and add powerdice).

- The BSB may change slightly in wargear. I am also unwilling to part with the other Noble model (I love the model so he stays, sorry!) so I can change out his wargear (Talisman of Loec, for example), or in a drastic revamp use him as a Prince and run a pair of level 2 mages.

- My core units have thus far done their job. I don't know if I need to change much here, but if I go to a strong melee list, I'll change the archer for my new Seaguard for a little added oomph in the backfield.

- Swordmasters and Dragon Princes stay for sure. These units have been nothing short of brilliant, and they carry most of the weight in the list.

- Definitely keeping an Eagle, Bolt Thrower is up for negotiation

- Most likely to change the Silver Helms, although I do like it as a cheaper vanguard for the DP's.

- Chariot is also likely to be swapped out. It has done okay- but I just don't ever feel like I'm getting my full points worth here.

Comments and suggestions welcome!

- Yriel
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Old 01 Aug 2008, 20:26   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?

Hey mate ^_^. Well what can I say? Nothing but I shell repeat what I've said before.

Pick a style.

Your army leans, heavily, toward MSU. MSU, does work so if you to pick the MSU as your calling card, it will work. These are common/powerful set ups that you can do ->

Spiked list ->
Although looking a bit like MSU, the play style differs radically. It relies on 2-3 VERY VERY powerful units that can brake almost anything on the charge (bar unbreakable). With a single (or worse combined) charge almost nothing is left standing.
Spiked list is based around Single/Twin 10 Prince Hammer Backed up by the Tooled up BSB/Hero. Most spiked armies also feature the Stardragon just because it makes another ubber spike by himself.
Army features some chariots with/without heroes and such. RBTs are used to weaken enemy monsters and such.
The core is filled with few archer units which can hold table quarters and shoot some stuff the whole game. (spearmen are a bit better at holding, but can't shoot and see guard are FAR to price for this role)

TVI ->
Although suffers from a tremendous cost, it benefits from ASF and over all good infantry stats and powerful magic. I won't discuss it as I've described it to you a lot before, so we'll move on ^_^.

***Swinging gate ->
Don't ask, just go to some HE forum and look (I intend to look it up myself). In my shop, every HE isn't willing to part with their MSUs/Spikes for me to actually worry about that one, But I shell look it up for the "The more you know" factor I guess ^_^ All I know is that it is much like TVI based on the Infantry, but utilises some other tricks.***

MSU ->
Is what your army seem to look like. This list is all bout relatively cheap units that hit hard as hell. It doesn't match "spikes" in focused power, but it is cheaper and when something is lost (or rolls were fluffed) for some reason, list doesn't suffer much.
It features small (2-3 x 5-6men) units of princes and (1-3 x 12-14men) swordmasters and/or white lions and/or chariots. Backed up by either a lord on a dragon, or mages, or Mounted heroes for princes, or mages (combinations are plentiful), list is moving relatively fast, doesn't afraid to flee and hits hard.
Core for such armies are probably again archers, as they are cheap and are small/cheap enough to fill that core and can provide some decent cover fire and hold those quarters.

P.S. On more "direct suggestions".
- Drop silver helms, and depending on where are you going with your theme, drop spearmen.
- Keep the RBT and may be take one more. Or if you are having troubles with enemy warmachines more then with the monsters, drop the RBTs and take more eagles to deal with those and other small units.
- Heroes, well play with the gear. 2 nobles, archmage and mage is fine. You might want Teclis instead of Archmage, but if he is restricted for your club, then ohh well. Second mage should take the thing that allows him pick his spells, or silver wand (so he'll have 3 spells and good chances of getting spell u need.).

Hope that helps. ^_^

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 01 Aug 2008, 21:51   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?

Thanks Red Dog

My High Elves have pissed off at least one person in my gaming group since their debut...I guess it's a good thing! One of the players is in the middle of building an Empire army now in the hope of shooting my High Elves to death with muskets and volley guns.

I have a feeling that I elevated the group's intensity for Fantasy to a more competitive level- so I wouldn't be too surprised when people start bearking out the Special Characters and big monsters, or special characters on big monsters, fairly soon.

If so- Teclis will return to the list.

So did I make a mistake in building those spearmen into Sea Guard? Are the Sea guard just inappropriate with my tendancy for MSU? Do you think they'd make a decent replacement for the Lion Chariot or the Silver Helms?

- Yriel
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Old 01 Aug 2008, 23:48   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?

I really dont think anybody needs to pick an established style for the list to work, especially if you are an experienced or intelligent player You can make a nice competative list without using the same old methods.

I wouldn't be so quick to drop the Book of Hoeth unless you plan on adding more magic to the list.

You currently have 9 power dice, which just isn't enough for offensive magic, thats where the book of Hoeth comes in. Even with 10 power [this is all assuming 2 for the banner] you still arent going to get a great deal off. Especially not in a competative environment.

I find High Elves either work best when they go big on magic or they just took the Book and use their fantastic magic defense items/banners on nobles/units.

I would advise the Talisman of Loec to be put in your list no matter where it goes. If your Spears are running without a Character at the moment, a noble with just that anda Great Weapon will make the unit a killer.

I would move the Banner of Sorcery to a more durable unit, Swordmasters get shot down very easily.

Your list is quite offensive and High Elves are never going to really win a shoot out against armies like Empire anyway, so I dont see a problem in taking Seaguard rather than Archers. It gives you some Stand and Shoot shots and the option for some decent fire-power if the enemy must come to you. They are a handy table quarter holder too [one of your starting quarters]. Archers and Bolt Throwers arent very good at that as a simple Fast Cav unit or Lone Character can kill them.

So for core I would just go with;

16 Sea Guard; Shields, Full Command.
17 Spears; Full Command + Noble with Great Weapon + Talisman + Dragon Armour + Loremasters Cloak.

6 Princes; Banner, Musician, Banner of Arcane Protection.
6 Princes; Banner, Musician, Banner of Sorcery.

Give the Battle Standard Amulet of Fire too, for the Magic Res and put him with the unit that has the Banner of Sorcery.

Take your Swordmasters.

Drop 1 Level on the Archmage [he doesn't need it with the Book really, just throw 3 Dice at 1 Spell and 4 at Another. That gives you decent odds of doubles].

Drop the Gem of Hoeth from the other Noble.

Take 10 White Lions to shield your Sword Masters and to be the anvil to their [rather sharp] hammer.

So you are losing 2 Power Dice and 1 Dispell for greatly improved magical defense, especially on the important units. You could even use 3 Dice for Drain Magic and the rest for an offensive spell. You lose the Helms, Chariot, Eagle and Bolt Thrower most of which are fast units but you have plenty of speed in the Princes for a much improved core and a dangerous utility unit of White Lions.

Just a suggestion, either way I think you really need to consider magical defense and way to keep those Swordmasters alive.




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Old 07 Aug 2008, 01:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?

If you didn't min/max I'd support the list. The problem I have with it is you do what every High Elf player in existance does - basic 2 Core and then loads of specials. I understand that that's where all the good options are, but god's blood! That's ridiculous! What I want to see, desperately, in a Helf army, is an army built around their Core choices, like almost every other army in the entirety of Warhammer. I mean, my Welfs like Waywatchers, but I still take 9 Core Choices at 2K! They're all minned to the max, but I still have 9 of them. You have 2, running relatively close to minimum.

Still, I've got no right to complain. It's what Helfs do best, and it's what's most effective.

Here are my actual suggestions. I'd start by dropping the Book of Hoeth. Just not worth it in my opinion if you aren't going to throw obscene amounts of dice around. I mean, you have an Archmage and a Noble who pretends to cast spells. Next up, I'd drop the ability to cast from the Noble. It's just not good enough for what I understand to be a rather costly investment. I've got a friend who runs a single Archmage for all his magic, and still dominates magic against most armies.

Next up I'd drop the Silver Helms. From what I understand they're the bottom of the food chain in a Helf list, and just absotively suck as much as a Helf can. I didn't mean that in the way it likely sounded to the less mature of you.

The Lion Chariot is anyone's call. I'm not a fan of Chariots in general, and in all honesty I've never had even the slightest amount of trouble killing Lion Chariots. With the Dragon Princes they might be more effective though, so like I said it's your call.

I'd cram some Shadow Warriors in there if I were you. I've played against them a few times, and they seem to be pretty effective. I'd also tag a Noble in with them, armed only with Heavy Armor, a Great Weapon, and a longbow. That clocks in at 130 points if I'm not mistaken, and trust me when I say it can take on block units by itself. I've been on the receiving end of them before, and it's like wreckage in a can. They run up, deal 3 wounds, and then you can't attack back. You lose the combat, you run off, he runs you down... Over the course of 2 games a noble like that single-handedly wiped 40 of my models from the table, killing 3 units by himself. By himself, no Shadow Warriors with him. He even beat Waywatchers in a shooting match. We named him Stone Cold Steve Austin afterwards. He deserves it.

Ooh, /tangent.

Anyway,
- Kaffl
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Old 07 Aug 2008, 15:12   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help.

Red Dog- I'm definitely leaning towards a MSU style of attack. It just seems to fit my 'brain' best.

Veq- I definitely will be taking White Lions when I can afford it. That said- I'm worried about the overall flexibility I'd be giving up to beef magic defense the way you have it, as I feel I need a bolt thrower and an Eagle against the guys I regularly play against (they're not big magic users- Brettonians, Orcs, Dwarves...), but they regularly take war machines, fliers, and other things that I like the Eagle and RBT for. Given your advice- I'm tempted to drop the archers and free up points for seaguard to give me a more mobile set.

Kaffl: Unfortunately I have only recently obtained a third option for core. I understand the desire to see more core in the list, but for the sake of not being "just like every other HE player" I can't seem to justify what you propose given the models I have and the style I'm playing.

That said- Silver Helms are definitely going to go. If I chop the helms, and drop the chariot I should have enough for the White Lions (I actually want 15, is that bad?), and can try to make room for seaguard by dropping archers and a Dragon Prince from each squad.

I'll tweak another list and post it when I can. Thanks again folks!

- Yriel
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Old 07 Aug 2008, 16:36   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need to modify current 2K High Elf List...or do I?

15 White Lions is an ideal unit size. Then you can go 2x7 vs most opponents or 3x5 for those Bret Lance Formations.
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