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Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list
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Old 29 Jul 2008, 06:47   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Okay, so I'm starting Wood Elves as my first Fantasy army. I'll put up a project log soon.

But I want some criticism on this list. This is going to be made with what i currently own (i.e. the heros) + a Battalion + a unit of wardancers and waywatcher... To begin with the tree kin will be made out of stick or something.

Heroes
Highborn Lord - General
-Light Armor
-Great Weapon
-Bow of Loren
-Arcane Bodkins
214pts

Waywatcher Noble
-Hail of Doom arrow
-Brairsheath
153pts

Spellsinger
-Level 2
-Ranuís Heartstone
-Lamentation of Despairs
170pts

Spellsinger

-Level 2
-Dispel Scroll
-Divination Orb
175pts

Core
12x Dryads
-Branch Nymph
166pts

14x Glade Guard
-Lordís Bowman
-Standard Bearer
-Musician
192pts

10x Glade Guard Scouts
-Lordís Bowman
-Musician
182pts

8x Glade Riders
-Horse Master
-Musician
210pts

Special
6x Wardancers
-Musician
-Bladesinger
129pts

4x Treekin
-Elder
280pts

Rare
5x Waywatchers
-Shadow Sentinel
128pts


TOTAL: 1999

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Old 30 Jul 2008, 10:59   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

i'll throw in my limited wood elves knowledge (they were my first fantasy army, i've moved on to bretonnians now)


Quote:
Heroes
Highborn Lord - General
-Light Armor
-Great Weapon
-Bow of Loren
-Arcane Bodkins
214pts
now i really wish i could remember what the bow of loren was >

arcane bodkins are a cool feature though, make sure to aim them at heavy cavalry >

i like giving the hail of doom arrow to my lords. even at long range they hit on 2's with 3d6 shots - thats nothing to scoff at when against goblins/skaven etc (or even other wood elves).

i like the set up, suits the wood elves to a "T". cheap, gets the job done.

Quote:
Waywatcher Noble
-Hail of Doom arrow
-Brairsheath
153pts
again my knowledge of the armoury fails me on the brairsheath. i'm guessing its the thing that makes him even harder to hit than normal.

i've never used waywatchers (not got any models for them) but on paper they seem awesome. i only have one problem with this guy - MAGIC MISSILES!!!

you only have 2 lv 2 mages = 4 dispel dice.

any high elf player will be laughing with fire mages that can throw magic missiles (that auto hit) at your waywatchers without you having much to respond with.

consider another mage with 2 dispel scrolls, but test this guy out - see if he works for you

Quote:
Spellsinger
-Level 2
-Ranuís Heartstone
-Lamentation of Despairs
170pts
right, i'm giving up remembering wargear :

i dont like taking wood elf armies with "some" magic. i'd say go all or none. either flood your opponent with magic dice or rely on sheer overpowering numbers or firepower to get rid of enemy mages/spells.

that reaches a grey area against vampires though (who i think you will struggle against) as they can kick out so much magic that i cant really see a way to stop them.

Quote:
Spellsinger
-Level 2
-Dispel Scroll
-Divination Orb
175pts
as above ^^^

Quote:
Core
12x Dryads
-Branch Nymph
166pts
awesome to the highest degree!!

the more of these "little" spirits the better. try to avoid magic missiles though - they ignore your save.

Quote:
14x Glade Guard
-Lordís Bowman
-Standard Bearer
-Musician
192pts
i wouldnt start putting commands in your archer squads. if they ever get caught in combat, they are pretty much gone for the count.

the standard just gives your opponent free VP (not good).

a musician is handy though, for those who like the age old tactic of fleeing as a charge reaction (common for wood elves to set up charges in subsequent turns) as the musican lets them rally on a test of 9.

Quote:
10x Glade Guard Scouts
-Lordís Bowman
-Musician
182pts
if you need to shave points - i'd get rid of the champion, he doesnt add that much. other than that - nice unit

Quote:
8x Glade Riders
-Horse Master
-Musician
210pts
drop the champion, these guys shouldnt be in combat. never leave home without a squad of these guys - they are a great harrasment unit - picking off a model or 2 a turn. at a stretch they can charge a dwindled enemy but i wouldnt really trust them to charge so much as a war machine crew.

Quote:
Special
6x Wardancers
-Musician
-Bladesinger
129pts
love it. try to shave some points elsewhere to beef this squad up to 8-10 though. these little ninjas only have a 6+ save so they do die pretty quick once the enemy can draw a bead to them.

Quote:
4x Treekin
-Elder
280pts
i see one problem here.

these are your only "hard hitting" unit. to that end your opponent is going to focus all their hardcore units/shooting/magic at them. or simply avoid them (but that would probably result in them running into other nasties).

Quote:
Rare
5x Waywatchers
-Shadow Sentinel
128pts
i love the models but i have never used them.

on paper they seem undeniably awesome, but they have some pretty major weaknesses as well:

i) any tomb king army will laugh at them (their archers ALWAYS hit on 5+ anyway)

ii) magic missiles will hurt a LOT and you dont have much of a magic defence

iii) template weapons (dragons breath/warpfire/lightning cannons/rock lobbas etc) hit them as normal (watch out for goblin doom divers - they ignore skirmish and do something like D6 Str 5 hits - they're quite accurate as well)



i think you have gone for the option i did when i started - you want the models that look cool


but i think you are going to have to make some sacrifices, this army just doesnt have that much power output. it might be a hard army to catch up with, but it doesnt deal that much damage (a common problem for wood elves).


suggestions:

i) consider a great eagle - they are brilliant at knocking down war machines in the 2nd turn

ii) if you want treekin, i'd suggest taking more than one squad of them - or a MASSIVE squad of them (they are pretty nails, just watch out for bolt throwers)

iii) if you take wardancers, remember how fragile they are - squads of 10 or so do well.

iv) consider a level 4 mage if you want to use waywatchers - she will provide a lot of magic defence for you to help stop those pesky missiles from knocking them out.

v) no wild riders those guys are so awesome it is untrue. stick a character on a mount with them and give im the moonstone of hidden ways. nobody likes a fear causing cavalry charge from the rear wild riders are pretty much the only fast and hard hitting unit the wood elves have.

vi) i see you dont have any treemen - awesome!! it is refreshing to see them not in a list. however, without them you will need something that can kick out the hurt (opponents are affraid of them for a reason )



all in all i think that covers it. if i find my wood elves book i will read through it properly for you and try to advise further.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 01:40   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Posts: 943
Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Quote:
i dont like taking wood elf armies with "some" magic. i'd say go all or none. either flood your opponent with magic dice or rely on sheer overpowering numbers or firepower to get rid of enemy mages/spells.

that reaches a grey area against vampires though (who i think you will struggle against) as they can kick out so much magic that i cant really see a way to stop them.
I think 'some' magic is the way to go with Wood Elfs. Their magic isn't good enough to justify taking a lot, but it's also too valuable to not take any of. Plus Nobles rock.

Vampire Counts are nothing when put against Welfs. It's so unbelievably easy to defeat them it's almost a write-off game from the start. Vampire fall when out-flanked, and nobody does that like Welfs.

To put it in perspective, my tourney-winning Vamps fell to a rather novice Welf player because he was able to out-flank me. I couldn't handle the combat res. I think the only way Vamps would stand half a chance against a decent Welf player is to play a Refused Flank, but that's severely limiting. Like, just limiting enough to screw with all the strengths of playing Vamps.

Whatever though,
- Kaffl
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 03:13   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Well it's changed now. I've done some thinking on units and structure, and by the fact that treekin are harder to make than tree men i thought I give the treeman a whirl. Since they are so feared.

Heroes
Highborn Lord - General
-Light Armor
-Great Weapon
-Bow of Loren
-Arcane Bodkins
214pts

Waywatcher Noble
-Hail of Doom arrow
-Brairsheath
153pts

Wardancer Noble
-Blades of Loec
-Gwythercís Horn
-Light armor
127pts

Spellsinger
-Level 2
-Dispel Scroll
-Divination Orb
175pts

Core
12x Dryads
-Branch Nymph
166pts

10x Glade Guard
-Musician
126pts

10x Glade Guard
-Musician
126pts

5x Glade Guard Scouts
-Musician
91pts

8x Glade Riders
-Musician
198pts

Special
9x Wardancers
-Musician
-Bladesinger
183pts

Rare
6x Waywatchers
-Shadow Sentinel
152pts

Treeman
285pts

TOTAL: 1999


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Old 31 Jul 2008, 08:39   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 1,165
Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffl
Quote:
i dont like taking wood elf armies with "some" magic. i'd say go all or none. either flood your opponent with magic dice or rely on sheer overpowering numbers or firepower to get rid of enemy mages/spells.

that reaches a grey area against vampires though (who i think you will struggle against) as they can kick out so much magic that i cant really see a way to stop them.
I think 'some' magic is the way to go with Wood Elfs. Their magic isn't good enough to justify taking a lot, but it's also too valuable to not take any of. Plus Nobles rock.

Vampire Counts are nothing when put against Welfs. It's so unbelievably easy to defeat them it's almost a write-off game from the start. Vampire fall when out-flanked, and nobody does that like Welfs.

To put it in perspective, my tourney-winning Vamps fell to a rather novice Welf player because he was able to out-flank me. I couldn't handle the combat res. I think the only way Vamps would stand half a chance against a decent Welf player is to play a Refused Flank, but that's severely limiting. Like, just limiting enough to screw with all the strengths of playing Vamps.

Whatever though,
- Kaffl
i have had nothing but success with my 400+pts lv4 wood elf mage and her 2 branchwraiths


plus just what were you flanked by, the only things in a wood elf army that negate rank bonuses are treemen, wild riders and glade/eternal guard i think. wild riders i can understand but they still shouldnt kill enough models to win a combat on their own.

i really dont think that wood elf player was that much of a novice.



but @ JD, new list looks nice:

Quote:
Well it's changed now. I've done some thinking on units and structure, and by the fact that treekin are harder to make than tree men i thought I give the treeman a whirl. Since they are so feared.
i gave up making my 2nd treeman, the first was that much of a pain :P

Quote:
Heroes
Highborn Lord - General
-Light Armor
-Great Weapon
-Bow of Loren
-Arcane Bodkins
214pts
i checked my book yesterday, that is a nice setup you have there. though he only has a 6+ save??? with that bow you might want to consider giving him a steed and throwing him in with the glade riders ( i will have to check but i think he benefits from most/all of the fast cavalry bonuses)

Quote:
Waywatcher Noble
-Hail of Doom arrow
-Brairsheath
153pts
so in a wood shooting this guy is at what..... -4 to hit!!!

even other wood elf lords hit him on 5's >

but again, watch out for magic missiles, they are the bane of the wood elf army.

Quote:
Wardancer Noble
-Blades of Loec
-Gwythercís Horn
-Light armor
127pts
bah > i check off all the wargear i remembered you having and cant remember what the horn does!

other than that he looks pretty nice.

make sure he has a lot of support (as well as the wardancers) on the charge though. he is as hard as tissue paper

Quote:
Spellsinger
-Level 2
-Dispel Scroll
-Divination Orb
175pts
i'm not sold on the divination orb. you only have 3 dispel dice so you are not going to touch a magic heavy army (vampires, tomb kings, lizardmen etc). i think an extra dispel scroll would be much more usefull.

in fact, i would swap her for a branchwraith. they are not that bad in combat, can join your dryads and can generate 2 dispel dice (no scrolls though i believe). just a thought

Quote:
Core
12x Dryads
-Branch Nymph
166pts
as before - awesome

maybe try to squeeze 2 units of 8 instead of 1 unit of 12 (would require some points trickery)

Quote:
10x Glade Guard
-Musician
126pts

10x Glade Guard
-Musician
126pts
awesome, cant fault 'em

Quote:
5x Glade Guard Scouts
-Musician
91pts
hmmm, not sure 5 is enough of these guys. i assume they are there to absorb some of the damage that heads in the direction of the waywatchers whilst picking off soft targets (war machines etc).

to be blunt, i dont like them. but i cant think of anything better for the points so just ignore me

Quote:
8x Glade Riders
-Musician
198pts
again, awesome. never leave the woods without them

Quote:
Special
9x Wardancers
-Musician
-Bladesinger
183pts
that is more like it. they can take a few casualties without loosing any effectiveness and they are immune to psychology so they arent running any time soon.

Quote:
Rare
6x Waywatchers
-Shadow Sentinel
152pts
again, i cant "really" help with these guys, i have never used them. not sure the +1BS on the champion is all that worth it though. i'd consider dropping him to get your lord on a mount.

Quote:
Treeman
285pts
right....

this guy is nails but you need to make sure you dont just run him forward (obvious i know but still :P). i dont use them any more because they always flee from combat (stupid Ld 8 stubborn failing > ). a combined charge from one of these guys with some wardancers in a flank is usually enough to take most people down (barring them having iron breakers or something - cursed 2+ saves > )



overall:

1) i like this list more than the last one, though you have as close to no magic defence as you can get.

2) i really think you should try some wild riders for size. on a charge they get 1 str 5 attack and 1 str 3 attack (horse) and in any following turn they get 2 str 4 attacks on their own plus their horse. add to that the fact they cause fear on the charge and they become a nails unit.



other than that, nice list
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 12:51   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

For now, this is what i can make on limited funds.

Once the army grows to around a total of 4000 as i hope to get it i'll be able to play with lists ALOT more.

I'd like some wildriders but i cant afford them and glade riders are just plain good.

My general will be put into a unit of Gladeguard. That will robly be sitting on a hill or in woods.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 13:02   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
For now, this is what i can make on limited funds.
[...]i cant afford them and glade riders are just plain good.
fair enough and again, fair enough


Quote:
My general will be put into a unit of Gladeguard. That will robly be sitting on a hill or in woods.
hmmm, you have a pretty powerfull archer there but with some maneovering your opponent will be able to lock his line of sight pretty easily. i would really suggest either making him an alter kindred and running him solo (i would definately give him the cloak of -1 hittyness for that) or sticking him in a skirmished or fast unit.

just so you can always get those important shots off. plus a mount gives him a "slightly" better save :funny:


but like i mentioned - no ammount of moaning or groaning can really change your army if it works for you. my treemen fail every time i field them (loose combat by one and always seem to flee > ) but most players are flat out petrified of them.

if you like the list, dont change it
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Old 01 Aug 2008, 01:23   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Well i havn't used it yet.

The MAJOR problem i have with making my lord alter kindred is that then he cannot be my General. Otherwise i'd do it.

5 shots ignoring armor is too good to pass up, but then one of my nobels will be my general and that makes things a little bad for them as they were already big targets. Now they are big targets standing on a pedestal with ten bulls eyes on them.

unless having the wardancer nobel would be a good idea for my general.
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Old 04 Aug 2008, 11:52   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Heroes
Alter Kindred Highborn Lord
-Great Weapon
-Bow of Loren
-Arcane Bodkins
-Brairsheath
261pts

Noble - General - Joins Eternal Guard
-Spear of Twilight
-Gwytherc's Horn
120pts

Way Watcher Noble
-Hail of Doom Arrow
145pts

Spell Singer
-Dispel Scroll
-Ranu's Heartstone
135pts

Core

10x Dryads
-Branch Nymph
122pts

10x Glade Guard
-Musician
-Lordís Bowman
132pts

10x Glade Guard
-Musician
126pts

5x Glade Riders
-Musician
129pts

15x Eternal Guard
-Musician
-Standard Bearer
-Faoghir Ė The Banner of Dwindling
-Guardian
260pts

Special
6x War Dancers
-Musician
-Bladesinger
129pts

Rare
7x Way Watchers
-Shadow Sentinel
156pts

Treeman
285pts

TOTAL: 2000


Totally new list. What do you think?
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Old 05 Aug 2008, 13:16   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Welf 2000 point list. First fantasy list

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Totally new list. What do you think?
i actually quite like this list. but being the cynical, paranoid and critical nay-sayer that i am... i will try to fine tune a little more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Heroes
Alter Kindred Highborn Lord
-Great Weapon
-Bow of Loren
-Arcane Bodkins
-Brairsheath
261pts
i have ALWAYS wanted to try this guy out, on paper he seems just too good to be true. with the great weapon he can (with a bit of clever screening/manoevering) take down war machines as well. dont change him unless he doesnt work for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Noble - General - Joins Eternal Guard
-Spear of Twilight
-Gwytherc's Horn
120pts
off the top of my head, killing blow and enemies in range must charge when you use the horn.

nice combo, i would try to get some armour on him - i think you can buy light armour from the unit selection, and an enchanted shield gives him a 4+. not much but better than nothing (and enchanted shields are usually quite cheap).

alternatively, a nice surprise when using eternal guard is the pendant thingy that makes everyone in base contact strike after the bearer - great for irrititating those would be chargers (i would swap the spear for a great weapon if you go for that )


Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Way Watcher Noble
-Hail of Doom Arrow
145pts
i'm not so sure about this guy now, without the briarshieth he will either be in the waywatcher squad (planting a good 250+pts into one unit) or will be singled out quite easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Spell Singer
-Dispel Scroll
-Ranu's Heartstone
135pts
again to be blunt, i dont like it. i forget what the heartstone does but with 1 dispel scroll and 3 dispel dice you are not going to be stopping any magic phase. and with only 3 casting dice you will struggle to even get tree-singing cast.

any army with so much as one mage will have at least the same ammount of dispel dice as you can cast with (bear in mind you cant use more than 2 when casting with a lv 1 mage)

i would advise dropping her completely (unless you like the model) and boosting up the eternal guard a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD

Core

10x Dryads
-Branch Nymph
122pts
again, nice sized hard hitting and fear causing. whats not to like

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
10x Glade Guard
-Musician
-Lordís Bowman
132pts

10x Glade Guard
-Musician
126pts
efficient and small enough to be fairly cheap. dont be affraid to have these guys flee from charges, they will most often rally and can still contest quarters and things when they do

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
5x Glade Riders
-Musician
129pts
perhaps the bane of your opponents. march-blocking and picking off lone wizards or war machine crew - these guys excel at it.

plus dont forget that they are still scoring until they are down to 2 models (they count as 2 each)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
15x Eternal Guard
-Musician
-Standard Bearer
-Faoghir Ė The Banner of Dwindling
-Guardian
260pts
i'm going to have to ask what the banner of dwindling is becuase it has an effect on my comments here.

without researching it, i'd say you need a few more of these guys. 15 gives you a rank bonus of 2 that you loose when you suffer 2 casualties (the noble will boost the unit by one)

consider taking at LEAST 20 for the full rank bonus. they are stubborn with the noble there so they shouldnt run, but having them win combats is much safer

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Special
6x War Dancers
-Musician
-Bladesinger
129pts
unless you can keep these guys completely hidden, i dont think a squad of 6 is enough (perhaps hide them behind the eternal guard or a near-by glade guard unit to spring on any assaulters). consider a larger squad of dancers or i'd say drop them for more points elsewhere - which would be a real shame because the models are simply..... 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Rare
7x Way Watchers
-Shadow Sentinel
156pts
unless you can get some more magic defence, i'd drop these guys (again a shame, the models are lovely). they simply fall prey to magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Treeman
285pts
all i'll say is never charge him in on his own - ALWAYS support him. other than that - awesome



thoughts:


you have a lot of points taking nobles from several kindreds. i'd suggest dropping the waywatcher lord for another spellsinger with 2 dispel scrolls - stick her in a glade guard unit for "some" protection .

put some serious thought into the "strike first" magic pendant thing for your eternal guard's noble - you'd be suprised just how effective it is as both a weapon for halting charges and a psychological deterrant.

wood elves are famous for their movement phase (they are pretty much feared for the speed they can move around) but you only have 1 unit that can move over 10" in a turn (cavalry). if an enemy army can get hold of those guys you will find that they can keep pace with the rest of your army.


i keep plugging them but consider some wild riders :P



but i'll ask that you have a few practice games and post up what works and what doesnt work for YOU. i find that certain builds dont work for me but others do not - you may find that your play style is different to mine
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