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2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!
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Old 26 May 2008, 20:26   #1 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Hi dudes. 8)

I'm just starting to get into Warhammer (again, but this time with the intention of playing it rather than just collecting the models!), and to help keep costs down (and because I love them) I'm going with a purely Khorneate force to compliment my 40k one. ^^

So far I have 20 Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster, but below is my intended list atm. I will be fighting what sounds like a very nasty Vampire Counts list, that will utilise a LOT of magic, so I'll need all the disspel dice I can get! My opponent is confident that his magic will put me out of comission no matter what defenses I have, so I want to prove him wrong!

Right...to the list...

LORDS

Bloodthrister of Khorne
Dark Gifts -
- Obsidian Armour (should prevent any nasty Vamp weapons doing my BT a mischeif)
- Spell Breaker (to use against anything that seriously threatens my chances of victory)
- Collar of Khone (general magic defense)

Points - 540

HEROES

Herald of Khorne (to accompany first Bloodletter regiment)
- Firestorm Blade
- Armour of Khorne

Points - 140


Herald of Khorne (to accompany second Bloodletter regiment)
- Firestorm Blade
- Armour of Khorne

Points - 140


Herald of Khorne (to be a lone flanker or to go after Vamp characters)
- Chariot of Khorne (fast and hard hitting - hopefully)
- Soul Hunger (makes the initial charge nastier)
- Armour of Khorne (survivability boost)
- Battle Standard Bearer (Banner of Unholy Victory, should make it less likely that the Chariot will fail me!)

Points - 265

CORE

10 Bloodletters of Khorne
- Musician
- Bloodreaper
- Standard Bearer (Icon of Endless War)

Points - 175


10 Bloodletters of Khorne
- Musician
- Bloodreaper
- Standard Bearer (Icon of Endless War)

Points - 175

SPECIAL

6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne

Points - 210


6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne

Points - 210

RARE

2 Bloodcrushers of Khorne

Points - 140


Points TOTAL - 1995


I've tried to pick a fast moving force as I don't want to give my opponent too much time to raise more undead, and to take advantage of the fact the weaker units move so slowly. I'm hoping that with this setup I can pounce on his nastier units right away with the Bloodthirster, Chariot and Bloodcrushers while my hounds rip apart units of Zombies and the like. The Bloodletters can follow up and deal the final blows to what's left.

Advice/comments very welcome as I'm pretty inexperienced to the mechanics of the game and have never seen Vampires in action (though I have glanced at their army book and been told quite a bit by my mate).
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Old 28 May 2008, 05:19   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

First thing first.
You need another Core to play that army As you have a lord (Which you need 2000pts or more to use), you must have 3 core. (which is minium on 2000pts or more.

I would also like even more core, as your army is pretty thin.
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Old 28 May 2008, 14:09   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Im guessing you want to play pure Khorne? that makes things a lot tougher, especially against Undead as their magic isnt offensive, so your magic ressistance just doesnt really work against them.

Heres what I'd do;

Thirster; 525
Firestorm Blade,
Spellbreaker,
Immortal Fury.

7 S7 Attacks, Re Rolling Misses. Plus its flaming to deal with pesky regeneration you see in Undead Lists. [This way you kill a Varghulf in 1 round rather than 2]

Herald; 215
Battle Standard with Great Standard of Sundering,
Firestorm Blade,
Armour of Khorne.

He helps with magic defense again.

Im not so sure on the Chariot Herald, he hits hard but as your playing against undead, they wont break and you wont cause enough damage to run right through them. Then they will just replenish ranks and you will slowly lose on combat res.

12 Bloodletters; 174
FC.

11 Bloodletters; 162
FC.

12 Bloodletters; 174
FC.

You dont really need the Icons of Endless War as you are faster than the Undead anyway. Go for 12 as they are powerful models and you want as many as possible in contact with the enemy [6 in this case due to big base sizes].

6 Flesh Hounds; 210
6 Flesh Hounds; 210

3 Bloodcrushers; 210

That leaves you 120 Points. Id want a Herald of Tzeentch for the extra dispell but it obviously doesnt fit the theme unless you have some conversion of a horror in a cage with a Bloodletter on top of the cage or something. If not then you can get 5 furies then 5 more Bloodletters for one of your units for 3 ranks of 5. Or just have both your units without the Herald at 15 strong to make up for the lack of Herald.
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Old 28 May 2008, 17:08   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Well I don't know much about Chaos but I do play Vampire Counts so I can give you some advice .

Well it sounds like he's got a couple of Necromancers so you need to get into combat as soon as possible to stop them causing any major problems, [but it looks like you've already got that sorted].

If he's boasting about magic then he may also have a Vampire Lord. These guys are nasty but when you've got a Bloodthirster I'd say you win there .

The main problem I can see with you list is numbers. Going all Khorne [well, going Chaos at all] reduces the numbers in your army dramatically. He'll probably have at least 2 units of Skeleton Warriors with at least 20 models in each unit so he'll be getting a rank bonus.

Though you do have fast units don't under-estimate the Undead. They have several fast units at their disposal: Dire Wolves, Bat Swarms, Fell Bats. Make sure you take them out early, that way you can easily dominate with flanking maoevres.

I hope for your sake he hasn't taken any Crypt Ghouls. Their Skirmishers [if you read the Warhammer Movement Tactica in White Dwarf a while back you'll know how good they can be when utilised properly]. Not only this but they also have Poisoned Attacks.

If he's chosen his Army List wisely then I think you'll have a hard time due to you having chosen Khorne. You're going to have use your Bloodthirster to the best of it's ability.

Well, hope it helps and tell us the result of the battle.


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Old 28 May 2008, 17:44   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Crypt Ghouls are no longer Skirmishers and if the Vamp Count player is going magic heavy, he will not have any Necromancers. Necromancers are taken in lists that dont have as much magic as you can guarantee which spell they get, which you need when you dont have as much magic to throw around.
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Old 28 May 2008, 18:02   #6 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullzD
First thing first.
You need another Core to play that army
Gah! I can't believe I missed that. Thanks.

Quote:
I would also like even more core, as your army is pretty thin.
Hmmm, I'll think on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arguleon-veq
Im guessing you want to play pure Khorne? that makes things a lot tougher, especially against Undead as their magic isnt offensive, so your magic ressistance just doesnt really work against them.
Yeah I'm going for a pure Khorne force, all the way. ^^ I generally find non-specialist forces boring, not sure why!
So they don't use the Lore of Fire? My mate made their spells sounds pretty nasty, but if you're right at least I don't to worry about being blasted at range.


Quote:
Thirster; 525
Firestorm Blade,
Spellbreaker,
Immortal Fury.

7 S7 Attacks, Re Rolling Misses. Plus its flaming to deal with pesky regeneration you see in Undead Lists. [This way you kill a Varghulf in 1 round rather than 2]
Sounds nasty, I won't have to worry about a Varghulf I'm sure because my mate said he hated the model (I don't see why, myself) but this combo sounds pretty good.

Quote:
Herald; 215
Battle Standard with Great Standard of Sundering,
Firestorm Blade,
Armour of Khorne.
Looks good - which Lore do Vampires use (just so I know what Lore to choose)?

Quote:
Im not so sure on the Chariot Herald, he hits hard but as your playing against undead, they wont break and you wont cause enough damage to run right through them. Then they will just replenish ranks and you will slowly lose on combat res.
Yeah it felt like a bit of a wildcard unit. Still, wouldn't the banner prevent him loosing so badly through combat res? Would he still make a good character hunter (my mate loves powerful characters)?

Quote:
12 Bloodletters; 174
FC.

11 Bloodletters; 162
FC.

12 Bloodletters; 174
FC.
FC ?

Quote:
You dont really need the Icons of Endless War as you are faster than the Undead anyway. Go for 12 as they are powerful models and you want as many as possible in contact with the enemy [6 in this case due to big base sizes].
Sure, thanks. I went for those thinking I would be recieving a lot of magic in the face and wanted to close the gap quickly, if that's not the case then I have no problem with dropping these.

Quote:
6 Flesh Hounds; 210
6 Flesh Hounds; 210
Gotta love those flesh hounds!

Quote:
3 Bloodcrushers; 210
Beefed this unit up a bit - how nasty (in relative terms) are these? Would they need to be concerned about charging an average unit of Crypt Ghouls or Grave Guard (I think that's what they're called)?

Quote:
That leaves you 120 Points. Id want a Herald of Tzeentch for the extra dispell but it obviously doesnt fit the theme unless you have some conversion of a horror in a cage with a Bloodletter on top of the cage or something. If not then you can get 5 furies then 5 more Bloodletters for one of your units for 3 ranks of 5. Or just have both your units without the Herald at 15 strong to make up for the lack of Herald.
Yeah I think I'll just bulk up the BL units without the Herald - makes the numbers nice and even too, I just need two more boxes of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arandomshadow
Well I don't know much about Chaos but I do play Vampire Counts so I can give you some advice .
Inside information is always appreciated.

Quote:
Well it sounds like he's got a couple of Necromancers so you need to get into combat as soon as possible to stop them causing any major problems, [but it looks like you've already got that sorted].
I think he plans to have one IIRC. I'll probably send some of the hounds after him lol.

Quote:
If he's boasting about magic then he may also have a Vampire Lord. These guys are nasty but when you've got a Bloodthirster I'd say you win there .
Oh he will, he will have it very kitted out and designed to dish out a lot of pain. He knows I'll have a BT and didn't seem too worried (but then he hasn't seen the options for them). :P

Quote:
The main problem I can see with you list is numbers. Going all Khorne [well, going Chaos at all] reduces the numbers in your army dramatically. He'll probably have at least 2 units of Skeleton Warriors with at least 20 models in each unit so he'll be getting a rank bonus.
Yeah I might be a bit outnumbered, but this just gives each individual in my army more of a chance to spill blood. He will have one unit of Skeletons IIRC, he's actually going to be focusing on nasty units I think, with Zombies as weak units.

Quote:
Though you do have fast units don't under-estimate the Undead. They have several fast units at their disposal: Dire Wolves, Bat Swarms, Fell Bats. Make sure you take them out early, that way you can easily dominate with flanking maoevres.
Hmm, thanks. I expect to see some Wolves, not sure about the bats. How best to take them out?

Quote:
I hope for your sake he hasn't taken any Crypt Ghouls. Their Skirmishers [if you read the Warhammer Movement Tactica in White Dwarf a while back you'll know how good they can be when utilised properly]. Not only this but they also have Poisoned Attacks.
He will, he kept going on about how hardcore they were! :P Maybe the Bloodcrushers will make short work of them?

Quote:
If he's chosen his Army List wisely then I think you'll have a hard time due to you having chosen Khorne. You're going to have use your Bloodthirster to the best of it's ability.
I get that feeling hah. Any tips on using the BT are welcome, I rarely have so many points invested in one powerful unit in 40k. I was planning to fly over to the Vamp Lord and take it down ASAP to prevent him causing too much havoc, and then assault the rear of the more powerful units. Good/bad idea?


Really appreciate the help guys, thanks!
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Old 28 May 2008, 18:11   #7 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Modified List:

Bloodthirster; 525
- Firestorm Blade
- Spellbreaker
- Immortal Fury


Herald; 215
- Battle Standard with Great Standard of Sundering
- Firestorm Blade
- Armour of Khorne


CORE

15 Bloodletters; 174

10 Bloodletters; 162

15 Bloodletters; 174


SPECIAL

6 Flesh Hounds; 210

6 Flesh Hounds; 210


RARE

3 Bloodcrushers; 210

I dropped a Bloodletter to even up the numbers (otherwise I'd have to buy a box of 10 for one model). :P Or do I have to have that one, so the ranks are even with the Herald?
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Old 28 May 2008, 18:23   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

'I generally find non-specialist forces boring, not sure why!
So they don't use the Lore of Fire? My mate made their spells sounds pretty nasty, but if you're right at least I don't to worry about being blasted at range.
'

There are ways for them to take normal lores but only the Lord will have it and if he does he will be shooting himself in the foot. The Lore is just Lore of Vampires. Its mainly about raising their own troops, moving them about quicker and summoning zombies for redirection purposes.

'Sounds nasty, I won't have to worry about a Varghulf I'm sure because my mate said he hated the model (I don't see why, myself) but this combo sounds pretty good.'

Yeah its still a powerful combo, plus if he takes the super banner with a unit of gravegaurd that gives them all regenerate, this will be invaluable.

'Yeah it felt like a bit of a wildcard unit. Still, wouldn't the banner prevent him loosing so badly through combat res? Would he still make a good character hunter (my mate loves powerful characters)?'

Wouldnt make him that much better at character killing than a normal Herald on Bloodcrusher as the impact hits have to go on the unit and he can just accept with a unit champ anyway. He probably wouldnt die because of combat res or anything but he is fairly easy to tie up.

FC is Full Command, im just lazy lol.

With the Flesh Hounds, remember that they are faster than his Cavalry, couple that with how hard they are they can actually charge knights and kill some. These things should get the charge off against bloodknights and actually beat them.

The Crushers should beat or at least draw with most units they charge, then they will start to win out due to casualties caused. Unlike the Chariot they dont rely on the Charge for a large portion of their kills.

Combat Lords shouldnt be much of a problem really, the Thirster should take them all. Hit him into the rear of the unit containing the Lord, he cant fight you first turn whilst you half his unit. Then you kill the Lord next turn. It will take a huge chunk of points out of the enemy and there isnt much he can do about it as the Thirster is no longer frenzied. Even if he has the Frost Blade, you should strike first and even if you dont [due to Danse Macabre or a Corpse Cart] the Vamp will still have a hard time causing that wound on you.
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Old 28 May 2008, 19:22   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Ok I'm going to make few small comments as most of the stuff was said.

Comments on new list.

Firestorm blade = Is this list an all comers list or tailored vs VC?

If it is allcomers DROP IT NOW like a hot potato! High Elves will EAT you alive! The only guy strong enough to take a dragon in your army is your main daemon. And chances are 99 out of 100 that Elf is wearing asbestos underwear (Dragon Armor) which will make your guy USELESS. You can keep it on herald as he shouldn't battle Armored Cavalry or Dragons.

Other things-> Most things are looking good.
- You might want to have at least ONE unit with skull totem. Ability not being march blocked is something not to underestimate.
- Bloodletters are not sword masters and don't you forget it! They aren't as powerful and still T3 so try to protect them with other things and don't try heroic charges with them.
- As veqq said, magic doesn't stop at magic missiles. Most dangerous magic IMO is actually not a missile. Its either boosting(that benefits enemy) or moving magic that can brutalize any game. So some means of stopping spells like that would be nice idea.
- Standards on your units is a nice idea(unlike on other MSU armies) as your guys are technically unbreakable and the only way to take it is to get in combat and slay you to the man. That's NOT easy to do.

Ohh and for 'mixing up daemons'. Well, daemon book was MADE to mix and match and not make "khorn only" clubs. If you WANT to have only khorn, you'll have hard time. Though Khorn is one of the most capable of solo IMO, its still not a very good idea. Some Slaneesh daemons can help in making a fast, manoeuvrable and hard hitting army. Nurgle will make an excellent anvil, and Tzeench can be a good cannon. I wouldn't mix everyone in the pile, but taking two at same time is a good idea IMO.

Hope this helps. ^_^

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Old 28 May 2008, 19:38   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2000pt Khorneate List - Need Advice vs Vampire Counts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arguleon-veq
Yeah its still a powerful combo, plus if he takes the super banner with a unit of gravegaurd that gives them all regenerate, this will be invaluable.
He will probably take something along those lines, so sounds like it will come in useful.

Quote:
FC is Full Command, im just lazy lol.
Lol. :P

Quote:
With the Flesh Hounds, remember that they are faster than his Cavalry, couple that with how hard they are they can actually charge knights and kill some. These things should get the charge off against bloodknights and actually beat them.
Good to know, he is very likely to take a hard hitting and cool looking unit like that.

Quote:
Combat Lords shouldnt be much of a problem really, the Thirster should take them all. Hit him into the rear of the unit containing the Lord, he cant fight you first turn whilst you half his unit. Then you kill the Lord next turn. It will take a huge chunk of points out of the enemy and there isnt much he can do about it as the Thirster is no longer frenzied. Even if he has the Frost Blade, you should strike first and even if you dont [due to Danse Macabre or a Corpse Cart] the Vamp will still have a hard time causing that wound on you.
Thanks for that, it was mainly the Lord I was concerned about to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_dog
Firestorm blade = Is this list an all comers list or tailored vs VC?

If it is allcomers DROP IT NOW like a hot potato! High Elves will EAT you alive! The only guy strong enough to take a dragon in your army is your main daemon. And chances are 99 out of 100 that Elf is wearing asbestos underwear (Dragon Armor) which will make your guy USELESS. You can keep it on herald as he shouldn't battle Armored Cavalry or Dragons.
It's tailored against VC. I know this isn't necessarily a good thing but I only have the one opponent and generally do not enjoy clubs much so don't have to worry about Elven trickery.

Quote:
- You might want to have at least ONE unit with skull totem. Ability not being march blocked is something not to underestimate.
Sorry, you will have to explain that to me (not being very familair with the rules yet).

Quote:
- Bloodletters are not sword masters and don't you forget it! They aren't as powerful and still T3 so try to protect them with other things and don't try heroic charges with them.
- As veqq said, magic doesn't stop at magic missiles. Most dangerous magic IMO is actually not a missile. Its either boosting(that benefits enemy) or moving magic that can brutalize any game. So some means of stopping spells like that would be nice idea.
- Standards on your units is a nice idea(unlike on other MSU armies) as your guys are technically unbreakable and the only way to take it is to get in combat and slay you to the man. That's NOT easy to do.
Ok thanks for the tips, I might include another banner if I can free up the points, and I'll be sure not to let the Bloodletter's fierce appearance make me overestimate them.

Quote:
Ohh and for 'mixing up daemons'. Well, daemon book was MADE to mix and match and not make "khorn only" clubs. If you WANT to have only khorn, you'll have hard time. Though Khorne is one of the most capable of solo IMO, its still not a very good idea. Some Slaneesh daemons can help in making a fast, manoeuvrable and hard hitting army. Nurgle will make an excellent anvil, and Tzeench can be a good cannon. I wouldn't mix everyone in the pile, but taking two at same time is a good idea IMO.
Hmmm, I may end up adding a second patron's minions at some point (most likely Tzeench) but for now I want to pursue my dream of a vicsious Khorneate force. Thanks for the advice though.
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