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News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;
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Old 08 May 2008, 13:58   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Lords;

Daemon Princes still available as Lords, no Gifts.

Marks remain similar but Khorne now grants Magic Res 1 rather than a Dispell Dice. Tzeetch Gives a 6+ Ward. No more Warrior Wizards.

Troops;

Warriors [now 12 Pts] + 1 unit can be chosen at a further + 5 Points.
Marauders.
Hounds.

Special;
Knights.
Marauder Horse.
Chariots [Now about 100 Points].

Rare;
Hellcannon.
Spawn.
Giant.

Hardly any magic equipment.

Golden Eye and Crown of Regen about the only talismans. Weapons weakened. Power Familiar now 10 pts cheaper. Skull of Katam is the same. Staff of Tzeentch now only works on casting.

Just the super expensive Stubborn banner and the D6 shots one.

Looks pretty aweful to me. Lets hope its no real indication of the forthcoming Hordes book, or my 8,000+ points of Chaos will be staying in their cases!
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Old 08 May 2008, 15:50   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Hehehe ... I like these changes as they might FINALLY put a stop to complete power abuse of chaos percs and complete uselessness of 75% of the book!

------------------------------------------------------>
Khorne mark -> as it should be! Magic resistance isn't bad and khorne dispel dice abuse might be put to stop.

Mark of Tzeench -> Ohhh yes... that's is probably the biggest (along with knights and chariots moving to special) change of all. No more magical barrage lists is very good. Though however who can take the magic of Tzeench or was it completely nullified?

Lords -> That's actually bad IMO. Daemon princes weren't something spectacular before and now no gifts? If they want to make them valuable option at all, they are going to need gifts + old marks (making Prince of Tzeench use magic) for princes only.

Troops ->
As lizardmen I am angry for putting them ahead (or at same level) of me in cost efficiency again... However over all I am pleased to see THIS particular change as I have waited for it! I must say, this is incomparably better then what it used to be.
***Hounds still don't count towards minimal core right?***

Special ->
YES! Hahaha! Finally knights are where they BELONG! Along with chariots!
I would put the fast cav in the core if you ask me (as its hard enough to compete with hounds who are ubber efficient) now I think we won't see poor horsemen at all...

Rare ->
Who cares... I am not happy about hellcannon as chaos shouldn't shoot at all, but whatever. Loss of Tzeench and Khorne lists are present enough for me ^_^.

Items -> Hmmm that's not exceptionally good... But if there is no more "warrior wizards" how does the staff would work?

And plz don't complain about lack of equipment. Lizards don't even have that ^_^. I think Golden Eye would still be ridiculously powerful. Even though I find it very terrifying I'm glad that they kept it since there wouldn't be chaos dragons without it ^_^.

Over all, I LIKE where this is going to except few things like further nerfing princes and horsemen and dropping some magical percs. Otherwise if they change that, new book would be both powerful and diverse instead of "two lists book".

P.S. Can you link me to rumors plz?

Ohh yeah and I have nothing against chaos(except for it being 'poster boyz' of WHFB ^_^). I really do like the serious shift in using the chaos warriors and killing "khorne steamroller" and "tzeench chariot madness". The new Warrior lists should have more option on how to play with/against them. And chariots are there for the rightful support and not core.

Well we'll see where will it lead us ^_^

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 08 May 2008, 16:24   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Yes, it has nerfed the stuff that needed nerfing but that list as it stands is next to useless. It just wont compete.

I ran Slaanesh and Nurgle armies.

Lizards get WAY more stuff than that in terms of magic equipment and their characters are cheaper.

Chaos Warriors are now more useable but still not very good. Sauros are still better IMO.

Knights and Chariots should be special, thats fair enough.

I cant stand Giants so the rare options suck for me.

Theres just not enough in the list and what they do have just isnt very good at all.

MoK should give Hatred and Mag Res 1, for a cheaper points cost than the current one. I dont mind the Tzeentch change, it apparently gives Wizards with it some kind of re-roll ability.

They should nerf the chariot/knight madness and the Khorne and Tzeentch lists but this list just leaves nothing, it is in no way powerful. It wants you to take lots of Warriors but that still wont be competative. I'd like to see some better Special Choices.

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Old 09 May 2008, 13:53   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Well I agree on magic items, but don't worry you'll get lot at the release ^_^ Furthermore, this list does have about the same amount of options of units that lizardmen or bretonians have now. So that's no point to complain about.

And finally I thinking you can ran easily run a very competitive lists like ->

Slaanesh/Khorne "chess board". 3-4 12 men warriors (champions and/or musicians and one chosen) under khorne/slaanesh and 4-5 12-15 men marauders with only musicians. Then chariots and knights on flanks. And 3 mandatory hound units. -> This is classical MSU bait-flee-flank list that with new cheaper warriors will work VERY well. Plus with khorne/slaanesh its main units will not runaway when marauders flee.

Classical Village Idiot. Main line with huge blocks of warriors marauders with one of them housing a BSB with stubborn banner. Cavalry and/or chariots will support. Also cheaper infantry would mean this concept will work better.

Classical Hammer & Anvil. Warrior anvil at one side, chariot/knight hammer on the other. Simple and still very brutal. Its not very "creative" but will work. Now even better then before.

You said you have 8k of stuff, I'm hoping you have enough to run heavy infantry as that's what will chaos is going to now so you might as well play few "practise lists".

***Note that I do not share your opinion to make khorne have hatred Vs frenzy. Leave hatred to Dark Elves. Further more, Frenzy prevents people from running JUST khorne stuff and make them use their brain and other units more ^_^. You can still ALWAYS take undivided when playing khorne or any other marked general***

P.S. And yes I do not like every change (main is horsemen being special), but I think when the codex will be made, list will seriously drift towards infantry and of course it will get have lot more magic items and most likely some completely new units

And of course i don't enjoy people loosing their lists. However I do enjoy that All knight army (I have nothing Vs all cav, just not all Knights, leave it to brets and maybe empire) and Tzeench chariots madness is now dead. However if you played Nurgle/Slaanesh, you should suffer THAT much.

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 09 May 2008, 17:01   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Those lists arent competative. They are decent but they are nowhere near competative enough against other high powered armies. Chaos wasnt top tier in terms of power anyway, now it is very very weak [untill the proper release anyway]. All those tactics suggested work fine for most armies out there. Just they can usually do it better.

I ran infantry Heavy anyway but at least with the old rules I could actually take useful Beast units etc to make the list competative.

Im hoping some items will allow you to take Daemon/Beast units when the proper book comes around.

Warriors still just dont work. I would have kept them at about the same cost and either given them 2 Attacks or S5 basic like the Chaos Knights.

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Old 10 May 2008, 22:31   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Wait... demons are being REMOVED from the hordes of Chaos army?

That just sucks... then chaos gets split... AGAIN! >_>
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Old 11 May 2008, 10:55   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

well this sucks
i think my gaming group will keep with 6ed where you can combine chaos since all our lists contain furies and fill an important role
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But Isn't it funny to think that guard might be able to copy eldar tactics slightly?
You mean "Perform Eldar tactics better than Eldar", right? :P
Not unless the Eldar have an obscure Warrior Aspect that revolves around the complete mastery of the common light bulb.
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Old 11 May 2008, 11:31   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Hey,

I've borrowed this off ulthuan.net. Seems pretty reliable.

Well, I got a chance to read with my own eyes the new Chaos list today. Fortunately, I also had my current Armies Book on hand to compare with, and a handy pen and notepad to note down any changes.

Suffice to say that the rumours at the start of this thread appear to be only the tip of the iceberg in terms of lousiness…


GENERAL CHANGES

The list contains no Cultists. No mention of them at all. In fact, there are no more Mortal units added to the very tiny number previously in HoC at all, unless you count the Giant and Hellcannon.

It’s worth adding though, that the new list removes many options for Chaos players, such as Bloodletters, Bestigors, Daemonettes, Great Unclean Ones, Shaggoths, Ogres, Horrors, Screamers, Minotaurs, Nurglings, Dragon Ogres, Bloodthirsters, Tuskgor Chariots, Keepers of Secrets, Centigors, Plaguebearers, Furies, Lords of Change, Flesh Hounds and some other stuff besides. So, you know, a lot.


MARKS

First of all, the Mark of Chaos Undivided is gone.

The Marks have the same effects for Lords, Heroes, Warriors, Knights and Chariots (Daemon Princes are the sole exception). Sorry, don’t have points costs.

Khorne – Frenzy. Proper frenzy that affects mounts, not the bizarre “only exception in the whole of Warhammer” old frenzy they used to have. Dispel dice are gone (no Magic Resistance either).

Nurgle – Fear (no extra wounds)

Slaanesh – Immune to Psychology

Tzeentch – 6+ Ward Save. Sorcerers can choose from any Lores in the Warhammer rulebook.

And whilst we’re on the subject of Lores… the Lores of Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are gone. Non-Tzeentch Sorcerers can choose from Fire, Death and Shadow. I was hoping they’d retain some level of coolness and bring back the option for Heavens (like in the old Ravening Hordes list), but alas, that would be too imaginative.

The Mark of your General has no effect upon Army Composition and units can be mixed in the army freely. Feel free to abuse the Chaos background as you see fit.


LORDS

The list has three Lord options, and indeed three options for Heroes, Core, Special and Rare too. 15 options in the whole army…Christ…

Chaos Lords have the same statline as currently and, as with every character in the list bar Daemon Princes, are 10 points cheaper. Nothing much to say here except that their weapons options are preposterously expensive – 20 points for a great weapon, 15 for a halberd, extra hand weapon and flail. The award for “most amusingly and blisteringly stupid decision of the list” goes to the person who decided to make a shield cost 15 points for a Lord, when the Enchanted Shield is still available for 10…

Exalted Sorcerers are 10 points cheaper and use the Lores mentioned previously.

Both these two have access to a Chaos Dragon, which has exactly the same stats and points cost as present. Breath weapon attacks have been tweaked though – one is Strength 3, the other is Strength 2 and Armour Piercing.

Chaos Steeds are unchanged. Daemonic Mounts (which now stand in for Juggernauts, Boob-Snakes and Discs too…sigh…) have changed dramatically in line with the Daemon’s list – same cost and statline as currently, but with only one Wound, +1 Initiative and a drop in Ld (bizarrely). Characters also have the option of a Chariot for +100 points, same as normal entry except they displace one of the crew.

Daemon Princes are still in, but without Daemonic Gifts. Stats the same except they have Initiative 7 for some reason. Daemonic is out, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, 5+ Ward Save and Magical Attacks are in. 50 points more expensive than they currently are. Marks as below:

Khorne – Frenzy, Magic Reistance. Think it’s MR 1, but I’m not certain, sorry.

Nurgle – Toughness 6.

Slaanesh – Always Strikes First

Tzeentch – 4+ Ward


HEROES

Exalted Champions are Toughness 5. It’s a stupid decision since, combined with the points drop of 10, it makes upgrading Aspiring Champion to Exalted for +20 points an even more no-brainer choice than it is now.

Sorcerors drop 10, as do Aspiring Champions. As currently, only Aspiring Champions can be a BSB, which is the only possible reason to consider taking one (especially since they can’t ride Daemonic Steeds either). Both Champions continue the trend of ridiculously costed weaponry.


CORE

Warriors of Chaos drop to 12 points in a rare instance of Games Developer sanity. No other changes that I can tell, except that ANY unit can take a Magic Banner under 50 points (which, as you’ll see from the Magic Items section, isn’t really an advantage…) and Chosen upgrades cost +5 points a model now.

Marauders are the same except commands are more expensive, since lord knows that +10 points for +1 Attack was so game-breakingly unbalanced right now. Warhounds are unchanged, still don’t take up Core, which means you HAVE to include Marauders or Warriors on foot in your army. Why do you hate me GW?


SPECIAL

Knights are now Special and cost 5 points less a model than before, with a Chosen upgrade now + 10 points. Any units can take Magic Banners now. I would have liked to see S4 with a very expensive option for a Lance (so, you know, people can use their old models) but what’re you gonna do.

Chariots get a large points break and cost 100 points. 2 can be taken as one Special choice (cos that’s far less unbalanced than Goblin Chariots, apparently).

Marauder Horsemen are now Special. Apparently, I must be very stupid, because to my puny intellect this seems like an incomprehensibly moronic decision. Throwing axes cost only 1 point and the option for Shields is gone. Feel free to continue buying shielded horsemen in the shops though.


RARE

Giants and Hellcannons are in, with Hellcannons taking up two Rare choices. Apparently, the team at WD decided that too much space in the article was taken up with the sheer multitudes of other units in the Chaos list to justify printing the rules for these. Which means you’ll have to buy Storm of Chaos and Beasts of Chaos to use them. Yay.

Spawn are here too, same points, same rules, except the option to customise your Spawn to make them interesting and unique is gone. Why…?


MAGIC ITEMS

VAST numbers of Magic Items have been cut from the list, with nothing given in return. I’m going to lay off with the criticism for this mind, since it is just a get-you-by list after all (though a simple note “Don’t take Daemons with your Hordes list” and leaving it at that would have made this whole process much easier…)

The cost of Common Magic Items is constant, except the Biting Blade (5 points) and Sword of +1 Attackeyness (20 points). Amusingly, this means that for a Chaos Lord, the Sword of +1 Attack and an Enchanted Shield costs the same as a shield and additional hand weapon.

5 Magic Weapons. The Chaos Runesword is 60 points, for each wound caused by the character (in combat?) they gain one wound themselves. Chaos Daemon Sword (50 points) gives +1 WS, +1 S and +1 A, with any rolls of a one to hit attacking the character bearing it. Whip of Pleasure is down to 40 points but otherwise unchanged, Filth Mace and Axe of Khorne are the same as now.

4 Magic Armours. Chaos Runeshield, Armour of Damnation, Bane Shield and Crimson Armour of Dargan. All exactly the same as now.

2 Talismans. Crown of Everlasting Conquest (no change), Golden Eye of Tzeentch (now 40 points). Collar of Khorne has been moved to Enchanted Items, see later.

3 Arcane Items. Staff of Change costs 70 points and no longer exhausts itself when it actually does something useful. Skull of Katam remains unchanged. There’s a new kind of Familiar, Chaos Familiar, which gives +1 Power Dice and +1 Dispel Dice for 40 points.

2 Enchanted Items. Helm of Many Eyes is still in unaltered (surprisingly, actually) and the Collar of Khorne has been moved here, costing 25 points and providing a Magic Resistance of 3.

2 Magic Banners, which since one costs 125 points makes the whole “any unit can take a Magic Banner of 50 points or less” kind of pointless. Banner of the Gods and Banner of Wrath are largely unchanged, except the Gods now has a much more useful range of 12” and the Wrath now comes with a Power Level of 5.


It's funny but people over at ulthuan are complaining about how overpowered the Hordes of Chaos are going to be. Am I the only one that thinks that this army has been severely weakened?

Looks like the only other fantasy army I actually enjoy is gonna get boxed for a while :'(

~Pettsy~
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Old 11 May 2008, 11:44   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

yep if its true then we're definitely going to use 6ed
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But Isn't it funny to think that guard might be able to copy eldar tactics slightly?
You mean "Perform Eldar tactics better than Eldar", right? :P
Not unless the Eldar have an obscure Warrior Aspect that revolves around the complete mastery of the common light bulb.
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Old 11 May 2008, 18:26   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: News on Hordes of Chaos WD List;

Only a fool would play this army after playing the 6ed.
Either this edition will get banned or we will not see chaos for a long time on the boards.
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