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Daemons of Chaos
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Old 21 Apr 2008, 00:55   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Daemons of Chaos

I was looking over the open copy of the Daemons of Chaos book at the local GW, and I tried my hand at making a list. Those that know me know I like to go magic heavy, and of course Tzeentch is my favorite god, not to mention the greatest of all chaos gods ( )

My list is thus -

Lord of Change (635)
- Level 4
- Tzeentch's Will
- Power Vortex

Blue Scribes of Tzeentch (81)

Herald of Tzeentch (145)
- Power Vortex

Herald of Tzeentch (145)
- Power Vortex

20 Horrors (335)
- Command w/ Changeling
- Icon of Sorcery

20 Horrors (270)
- Command

20 Horrors (270)
- Command

3 Flamers (120)
- Pyrocaster

The list comes out at 19 Power Dice for 2K, plus the Blue Scribes that don't generate dice, but have amazing Bound Spells and absorb 1 power die every time your opponent successfully casts a spell that I can use in the next turn. That means if my opponent successfully casts 6 spells, I'll have 25 dice to use in the next turn. That's a lot of dice. Every unit of Horrors is a level 2 Wizard as well, with the level 1 spell that does d6+1 hits at strength d6+1, and with the Wind of Change spell that I don't remember right now. Both of the Heralds generate 3 power dice instead of 2 (because of the power vortex), and the Thunderchicken (Lord of Change) generates 5 for the same reason (and can re-roll 1 die per turn, for anything, including casting). The Flamers are filler, but they're still pretty decent.

I've looked over some of the Khorne units as well. Bloodletters are pretty decent, with 2 attacks each at strength 4 and toughness 4. The Juggernaut Riders (something-crushers, I don't remember off the top of my head) are absolutely ridiculous - They've got a 4+ save, killing blow, and I-don't-remember-how-many attacks. Not to mention they're FAST. Daemonettes are also 3 attacks apiece, if anyone cares. I didn't bother looking at Nurgle, because Nurgle isn't worth my time.

My list is pretty cheap too, all things considered. Money-wise, that is. It weighs in at $334 for the whole thing (I'm gonna use Be'lakor for my THunderchicken when I start, and later for a Daemon Prince if I decide to use a Daemon Prince), and I have 1 extra Flamer left over. About the coolest thing is that the Blue Scribes and the Heralds are all Horror models, so I don't have to do anything but convert them, so it saves money.

Speaking of conversions, anyone have any ideas on a Tzeentch Musician? What kind of instrument should I sculpt onto it?
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Old 21 Apr 2008, 23:38   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

You seem to prefer rolling dice over using tactics... well your choice, your loss.

There is a good reason why nearly all tournaments here in germany have themselves restricted to 8-10 power dice...

Anyways, since I have absolutely zero interest in your army list per se I solely replied to comment on this part:

Quote:
I've looked over some of the Khorne units as well. Bloodletters are pretty decent, with 2 attacks each at strength 4 and toughness 4. The Juggernaut Riders (something-crushers, I don't remember off the top of my head) are absolutely ridiculous - They've got a 4+ save, killing blow, and I-don't-remember-how-many attacks. Not to mention they're FAST. Daemonettes are also 3 attacks apiece, if anyone cares. I didn't bother looking at Nurgle, because Nurgle isn't worth my time.
WRONG.

Bloodletters have S5 and T3 with one attack and killing blow. Demonettes have 2 attacks per model. I know your focus while browsing armylists lies on the powerdice-part, but please, spare us the wrong details.

Oh, and for the bloodcrushers: At 70 pts a pop and a rare slot they better pack a punch. M7 is not exactly "FAST", but oh well.
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 00:00   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

Sorry, it's been a few days since I read it, but I could have sworn that Bloodletters were S4, because I noted that the Daemonettes with 3 attacks were S3. It makes sense in my head, anyway.

By the way, I enjoy using tactics in my games as much as the next guy. Just because I like magic doesn't mean I'm incompetant as a general, I just decided to use my resources to my best advantage. I have a magic phase after all, why wouldn't I want to use it? As per your tournaments restricting armies to 10 power dice, all I can say is that if my opponent is unprepared to face a situation where they may be at a disadvantage, then they deserve to lose. Such restrictions weaken some armies, and give advantages to others (advantage Dwarfs!). Vampire Counts, for instance rely on magic to win games, regardless of what kind of Vampire Counts army you play. I personally refuse to play with any less than 14 power dice in 2K, because I want to maximize my advantages and play an army I can feel confident in, as opposed to having shaky magic phases, or having others overwhelm me with their magic. Tzeentch, of any flavor, would be at a HUGE disadvantage as well! I've yet to see a Tzeentch army at 2K with less than 10 power dice, and that was possibly the easiest win over a Chaos army I'd ever had. All I'm saying is that, if you aren't competant enough as a player to deal with excess magic or, indeed, any sort of excess in a list (be it excess model count, excess close-combat power, or excess shooting capability), then you deserve to lose. And I've taken on Goblins, Khorne Mortals, and Dwarf Gunlines victoriously, so it's not as if excesses can't be beaten if you play to their weaknesses.

As an aside, there is an easy way to beat my army. Outmaneouvre it, and you won't have to dispel any of my spells for an easy win. A Wood Elf player I recently went against did it, and stomped me. Don't complain about too much magic just because you think it's an easy way to claim a victory.
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 05:34   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

Oh, my argument regarding your exccess on magic is in no way related to "playing strength".

My point is the pure boredom it inflicts: Warhammer is a game of maneuvres and careful positioning, a part that many armies try to deny recently.

Each and every gunline, defensive army, all skirmishing army, magic heavy army and so on relies on the same things: denying the maneuvre-part of the game where infantry with all it´s flaws has to be put to their best use, in favor for rolling dice. Be those dice for magic, warmachines or poisoned blowpipes or whatever.


Warhammer is NOT a well balanced, tournament-orientated competetive game like Magic the Gathering or YuGiOh, Warmachine or whatnot else. Warhammer is deeply rooted in the role playing genre and willfully never fully let go of these origins.

I hope you at least see why I loath armies like yours, even if you disagree. Not because of their "strength", but because of the boring style of play they inflict on the opponent.

To the stats of daemons: Mayhap you took a look into the 40k book as well? There daemonettes have 3 attacks. And trust me, the only lesser demons with S4 and T4 are the plaguedemons of nurgle.

PS:
Quote:
Goblins, Khorne Mortals, and Dwarf Gunlines
You hero :
Khorne mortals, goblins and gunlines are SOO terribly hard to beat ;D

I not once saw any of these lists play succesfully at any tournament. In fact, I even looked it up at the german national tournament rankings and guess what? All those are underdog armies
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Gamestatistics ´07:

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9 victorious slaughters/ 7wins/ 5 draws/ 7 losses

[WH40k] Tau
17victorious slaughters/ 10wins/ 2draw/ 1 loss
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 15:38   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

EDIT;

Dont insult members or threaten other members.

Veq.
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Well I'd rather not play the game at all than play it like they did! :P
Crikey! This crazy clown causes commotion like the coming of Christ. Contained in a circle corrupted by crackheads and carnal cravings, he creates no concession to callous cheaters concentrating on nought but cock. Certainly, still a curious and cordial cavalier in the countenance of crazed cads, curs and creeps who condemn courtesy as something corny. No cloud could collapse his crushing crescendo of comical crowing and crimson coiffure. This conjecture on culture comes circumlocutive, consequently...

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Old 22 Apr 2008, 16:00   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

I'll have to take neutral side in this argument. As much as I can't stand gunlines, I also find magic far less powerful then shooting since shooting (except some warmachines) always works. Magic can miscast and the caster will travel into the warp...

There are things I find bad like new VCs for example. Casting on 3+, regaining D6 (or what D6+2 for zombies?) wounds is close to “imba”, there is NO way you can bring that many dispel dice. The only army that’s has remotely enough dice to make VC choke on their own bones are Soouthlanders, then again, not everyone plays them and even with about 11 DD, 4 scrolls and +1 to dispel its still will have to let few spells thru. If you planning on chewing the way thru... Most things just run out of attacks. The only way to kill them now is smash their general and pray he didn't bring the van carstein ring. Otherwise magic heavy vampire is very hard to handle. That being said I usually try to “deal” with things like that by simply trying to win anyway.

Smart player who relies on magic (which I find totally acceptable) uses it to MOVE not just bombard an opponent with valley after volley of magic missiles.

Which is WHY I don't like tzeench magic (same as nurgle quite frankly). Most spells are damage spells that are geared to just grind opponent into dust. Thats not fun, nor does it take any intellect.

I would be thrilled to play Vs magic heavy Slaanesh as their magic messes with lot of things and geared to gaining advantage in movement phase (in mortal/beast list it used to). Plus the units are faster and rely on position and tactic to win. Even though having 2 attacks, they go at S3 and that’s far from strong. Yeah, I think ASF isn’t necessary, but hey at least its not like a new HE as it would usually be maximum of 1-2 units having it (need a hero in unit or what ever it called). That kind of a game would be a challenge.

New khorn units should be nice as they lost frenzy and now no longer forced to be dimwitted steam rollers. I don’t like an excessive magic resistance (makes game to easy for them in some situations), but over all they are pretty nice.

I actually find new daemon book rather interesting and FAR more balanced then recent HEs & VCs. Even though I find some things like Great Unclean one with M6 dumb as a door knob… The book is still should be playable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
On your army in particular, I don’t like the use of special characters unless you absolutely have to (like Night Gobo army has to have Skarsnik). Further more, your army is few in numbers unlike undead, you can not resurrect dead and even though you have 60 wounds, they will be killed fast in combat.

Any opponent will take some sort of hammer unit, spent ALL his dice on saving that one unit (He might have a natural MR for that unit which spells doom for any magic missiles that targets it) and then smash it in your flank, you are NOT fast enough to react (movement is low) and once he is there… Your horrors will die well horribly. Mean while the rest of his stuff will absorb your magic and just go towards you.
I do not think that this kind of thing will work as it doesn’t have much staying power or punch to it. Once he is in combat, the magic will not save you (yes I know some tzeench spells might be cast in combat). And unlike gunlines, remember that the more dice you roll the more chances it will blow back in your face. Your big daemon (not only he will die in combat) but has good chance of taking trip back to the warp. That lot of points to go poof.

P.S. EDIT -> response to Jackoby the Circus.

Just like "people allowed to build gunlines" we (people who oppose it) allowed to be dicks about it. Range combat is an important phase of the game. Its not teh ONLY phase of the game. Just like the magic phase, its important to control it, but not to get carried away.

Quote:
I've seen Khornate Mortal armies stomp through all opposition, and Dwarven gunlines reduce every unit coming at them to nothing.
That proves your point how? That rolling dice works? Or that rolling dice takes skills?

Quote from Red Vs Blue
-Camping %&*!
-Its a legitimate strategy!

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 16:08   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

My point with regards to the Khornate Mortal and Dwarf Gunline list is that they are not walkovers as Trogdor implies. He claims no skill is required to beat them.

And High Elves and Vampire Counts are balanced. You just think otherwise because the strategy you prefer to use against them probably needs rethinking.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restayvien
Well I'd rather not play the game at all than play it like they did! :P
Crikey! This crazy clown causes commotion like the coming of Christ. Contained in a circle corrupted by crackheads and carnal cravings, he creates no concession to callous cheaters concentrating on nought but cock. Certainly, still a curious and cordial cavalier in the countenance of crazed cads, curs and creeps who condemn courtesy as something corny. No cloud could collapse his crushing crescendo of comical crowing and crimson coiffure. This conjecture on culture comes circumlocutive, consequently...

You may call me Circus.
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 16:32   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

Quote:
My point with regards to the Khornate Mortal and Dwarf Gunline list is that they are not walkovers as Trogdor implies.
Well, he has stats from GTs to prove his point. What do you have? I've seen that happen too, doesn't mean that it will happen with a very skillful player. Gunline has such serious weakness that most people will not play it. So does frenzy (that's why they were right not to give it to new Khorne book).

Quote:
And High Elves and Vampire Counts are balanced. You just think otherwise because the strategy you prefer to use against them probably needs rethinking.
HE -> Making WHFB into 40k (nearly illuminating effect of a charge against HE) is in NO way balanced or smart. Gearing an army to "noob friendly" isn't the way. They could have given them something else (or AT LEAST explain it better) to fix them as they were very week. All other stuff is rather interesting, except every player now takes special character in every army (I can't stand that, not rulewise though).

VC -> Because of VCs carring at least one magic weapon(for mele armies) in army is now suddenly required. It never was, and now everyone HAS to put at least one in their all comers. And their magic suddenly rivals Slaans magic? Never should have happen. And no I don't run Slaans armies so it really doesn't matter for me, but the fact stays.
But more importantly everything (except easiest heals) can be overlooked but the retarded corpse cart. Giving ASF to undead? I'm not sure what did they smoked.

And tactic Vs VC now like it was -> Kill the general and his unit. or outflank and plow. His fast units can be still redirected. Its just much harder to pull that of as racking up kills nullified by magic and with new 20 wraith lists... Yeah I find it rather funny.

Yeah I know GW need its money, but I hope they will not condemn the game to that in its entirety.

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 19:40   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

I realised that weakness in my list early on - I know I'ma be outflanked, but playing straight Tzeentch is going to make that a problem no matter what I do, because Screamers will never hold up in combat (look at their rules - they obviously aren't meant to!), and everything else fights at range. To be 100% honest, I won't care too much how the Daemons perform at first, I'm just looking for fun games. And lemme tell ya, I'm buying these Daemons as much for 40K as Fantasy - Tzeentch Daemon armies WRECK in 40K. Deep-strike and utterly overwhelm your opponent with shooting. I'll need to think about what I'm doing still - Daemons aren't as resilient as a Deathwing army, and there is the randomness of not knowing what you're starting with, but still...

As far as using magic as a legitimate strategy, you ought to know even with my Vampire Counts I use Vanhel's Danse Macabre almost constantly after the first turn to outflank my opponent - half my power dice per turn on average go to that spell, when I get it of course. Otherwise I have to rely on being a raisy player. Let me tell you, nobody who has played me has really complained too much, because I try to be a good opponent, it's just as much the player as the list. It can be just as fun to go up against Hordie armies, like a Slave-heavy Skaven army (shudder), or against gunlines (except those damn Thorek types!) because you're introduced to situations that require tactical thought to overcome a disadvantage. Partly, my Vampire Counts army is half about deception and half about overpowering magic - I start with 5 units on the table, not exactly hordie, but my opponent has to kill my whole army 3 times to wipe me off the table! Nobody expects that, all of a sudden I've got more models than my opponent can deal with.

As per my Daemons - I may be getting confused with the 40K Daemons, I read through both books. I don't remember much of anything besides Tzeentch (AKA the best god ev4r).

Trogdor, I agree that movement is a phase. An important one, even. Without movement, we'd be playing 40K with more models. It's not the only phase though. Magic, shooting and combat are all just as important to the game, probably even more. It's not as though I play with no tactical sense, because I do move to gain a better position and put my opponent into awkward situations, but I take a look at the big picture and design lists to take advantage of more than one phase. As a matter of fact, I do all that is within my power to have a strong Movement phase and Combat phase as well (Hence Konrad, Vampires with the Book of Arkhan, and blind faith that my dice rolling will give me Vanhel's Danse Macabre). I take a broad view to design an army that is strong in many phases of the game. I'm sorry if you've got problems with magic, but it's fundamental to the game, and if you're so strongly opposed to it you may as well stick to 40K and hope we never meet in person. Or you can pre-screen other players lists to make sure they aren't using any magic, but players won't be very happy with the latter.

One last option is to play a Dwarf army with nothing but Runesmiths and Runepriests, but I imagine that won't be too fun for you.
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Old 22 Apr 2008, 22:35   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Daemons of Chaos

Quote:
I'm glad I'm unlikely to ever face you on the tabletop, I might have to get someone to hold me back and stop me punching you.
Aren´t we mature? :

Fpr the rest of your post: So I am the only person on the net who is not allowed to dick around over something or another? What fun would that be? ;D


@ Kaffl: Let us not begin with the vampires, their lore is a whole other caliber compared to daemons. Vanhels is IMO the most potent spell in there by the way... but as you said: Vampires are magic heavy, but not ONLY magic.

Anyhow: My comments on magic heavy lists still stand. Or let me rephrase it: My comments on "nothing but magic" lists.

It is really not the "power aspect" that get´s to me. I guess we all agree that there is nothing inherently "IMBA" about heavy magic.

The point I vainly tried to get across was about boredom, not "cheese".

Your army will have to try to stay out of CC, ergo you´ll play defensive. Not much unlike a gunline plays defensive. Here is the punctum salens: Defensive armies are boring to play against! Be it empire/dwarf gunlines, lizardmen skinkcarpets or whatnot.

Now what is wrong about playing defensive? Too strong? Nah, there is plenty of ways to beat defensive armies.
But winning is not everything. To many gamers winning is not even 10% of the enjoyment a game has to offer.

For instance: Dwarf gunline vs brets, a game I watched on a tournament a while back. The dwarf castled up and shot, the bret advanced, steamrolled him and won in a landslide. Total massacre. But the bretplayer would later tell me that it was his worst game, since all he had to do was move forward, remove casualities and then slam straight in. He did not have fun at all.

My point is: The game should be enjoyable to all players, and a overly defensive or one-sided approach does limit that.

I hope I got my point across this time, since I felt a bit misunderstood before.

On another note: Since you field special characters, why don´t you go with that two headed chicken? at ~650 pts he is only one lord choice and counts as 2(!) Lvl4 mages which can choose their spell from any lore in the rulebook or tzeentch. Needless to say his inbuild daemonic gifts are not possible to take in that combination on a normal lord of change...

And now tell me that this guy (Kairos?) is not broken ;D
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Gamestatistics ´07:

[WHFB] Dwarfs
9 victorious slaughters/ 7wins/ 5 draws/ 7 losses

[WH40k] Tau
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