[Wired]

Heya, I'm going to be starting up a Vampire Counts army to play at my local gaming store.
I've played mostly 40k, and I do not know MUCH about Warhammer fantasy, so when looking through both books I dont know quiet where to start. I own the VC Codex and Warhammer Codex, and I'm going through them...

however, would anyone recommend a good starting list for a Von Carstein Vampire count army? just 1000 points to start..

I'm thinking a count, some skellingtons, maybe a zombie group, and possibly a banshee. No need to post pointcosts, of course.

[Wargamer]

Firstly, you can't have the Vampire Counts Codex. It doesn't exist. Nor does the "Warhammer Codex".

A Codex is a 40K army book.


Anyway, a good core for the Vampire Counts are Skeletons. Zombies aren't that great, and should only really be taken if you need a stupid amount of cheap units to speed-bump with. Even if they can't fight worth a damn, most units will start crying when in combat with 60 Zombies.

To be honest, alligning your army in the 1,000 point margin is utterly pointless. You need at least one Necromancer (two if you can), and then two units of Skeletons. From there, you can look at other units. Banshees are good for harassing the enemy, Spirit Swarms are fantastic for bringing your enemy's advance to a standstill, providing they aren't killed by Combat Resolution.

Myself, I'd invest in a big block of Grave Guard. I just love Grave Guard... maybe it's the Str 4 Killing Blow thing they have going...

[Wired]

Originally Posted by Wargamer

Firstly, you can't have the Vampire Counts Codex. It doesn't exist. Nor does the "Warhammer Codex".

A Codex is a 40K army book.


Anyway, a good core for the Vampire Counts are Skeletons. Zombies aren't that great, and should only really be taken if you need a stupid amount of cheap units to speed-bump with. Even if they can't fight worth a damn, most units will start crying when in combat with 60 Zombies.

To be honest, alligning your army in the 1,000 point margin is utterly pointless. You need at least one Necromancer (two if you can), and then two units of Skeletons. From there, you can look at other units. Banshees are good for harassing the enemy, Spirit Swarms are fantastic for bringing your enemy's advance to a standstill, providing they aren't killed by Combat Resolution.

Myself, I'd invest in a big block of Grave Guard. I just love Grave Guard... maybe it's the Str 4 Killing Blow thing they have going...

Only words a foul. Were those first two sentences REALLY necessary? You knew what I meant.

Secondly, my gaming store tends to do a lot of 1000 and 1500 point games, that is why I'm going for the 1000 point mark.

anyways thanks for the suggestions, I was only planning on adding zombies to fill in a point gap. The question is, is it worth taking musicians/standard bearers for undead units.

[Wargamer]

Frankly, it is my personal opinion that if you do not take full command in every possible unit, you're an idiot. Banners give +1 Combat Resolution, meaning you have less chance of losing combat. Musicians aren't quite as useful in the Undead as you can't flee, but as they can turn a draw into a win if you bring one and your opponent doesn't (or vice-versa), they are a must-have.

Always take Full Command. You will suffer horribly if you don't.

[Wired]

Originally Posted by Wargamer

Frankly, it is my personal opinion that if you do not take full command in every possible unit, you're an idiot. Banners give +1 Combat Resolution, meaning you have less chance of losing combat. Musicians aren't quite as useful in the Undead as you can't flee, but as they can turn a draw into a win if you bring one and your opponent doesn't (or vice-versa), they are a must-have.

Always take Full Command. You will suffer horribly if you don't.

Good good, that makes sense, thanks for explaining that part to me.

[Hadhfang]

Originally Posted by Wired

Only words a foul. Were those first two sentences REALLY necessary? You knew what I meant.

you're lucky he didn't slate you for calling it "Warhammer Fantasy" :P

anyways thanks for the suggestions, I was only planning on adding zombies to fill in a point gap. The question is, is it worth taking musicians/standard bearers for undead units.

You can raise zombies remember, and it is commonly believed that you should buy skeletons in the list and raise zombies in the game. Though I know a guy who uses exclusivley skeletons in his list.

I concure with the full command comment as well. The banner speaks for itself, Champions let you have a pop at the nemey even if your first rank has been slaughterd and a musician is there as a failsafe IMO. I've never known a game wher a musician has made me win a combat, but I know a few wher had I not had one I would have lost.

[Falstead]

Command units on zombies just aren't worth the points. A musician maybe if you feel like it, but I wouldn't bother with a banner on them.

Firstly its more expensive. More importantly however, once that zombie unit is wiped out (and it will be wiped out) then you've just handed your opponent an extra 100 VPs.

The banner means you crumble a little bit more slowly, but dying faster and preserving VPs is better.

Full command units are handy most of the time, but there's definitely a fair few number of units that don't need command units, and in some cases are actually a liability if they have them.

[The Long Night]

I agree that command groups just aren't worth it for the undead. One could say that if you always take full command group in every unit without thinking then you are an idiot.

The only really useful one is the musician in case of ties, remember because you cause fear if you beat someone and outnumber them, they need snake eyes to keep from running. Even then as you will never have to take leadership tests for combat then a musician isn't even that useful as even losing ties won't hurt you.

A unit of 20 skeletons with shields and hand weapons costs 160 points. If you go and stick a banner on them, should you lose that unit then your opponent will get the points for the skeles, they will also get more than half the units worth just for the banner. As such if they kill 3 skeleton units of 20 then they get 480 points for the units and another 300 points for the banners.

Putting full command crews is a waste of points for such expendable troops, sometimes a banner is worth it, but I usually leave the points for the banner with another unit as losing it is so expensive.

I usually reserve my banners and full command groups for Black Knights and Grave Guard. The Grave guard I usually stick with a banner of the barrows and the Black Knights I usually give Banner of the Dead Legion or the banner that makes them roll an extra d6 on their fear checks.

Your Wights only have a ws of 3, as such they are tied with most core units and below most elites or rares in weapon skill. The Barrows banner will let your wights hit on a 3+, it really pays off if you have a wight lord with the group. As such I tend to always take a banner of the barrows with one of my wight units.

I caution you against raising units though, if you raise a unit and your opponent kills it then he gets the points for it. As such if you raise 2 ten zombie units using Invocation and they get killed, not a hard task as even at the highest level you can still only summon between 6 and 21 zombies with the odds saying you'll probably only summon 13 or 14. Killing those 2 units means that your opponent just netted themselves an additional 120 victory points.

These raised units can be the difference between winning and losing a game for the points they give the enemy.

A good starting army list would be

Necromancer lvl 2
Black Periapt
Total: 115

Wight Lord- Heavy Armor, Battle Standard, Cursed Book, Barded Nightmare
Total: 151

20 Skeletons w/ hand weapon & shield
Total: 160pts

20 Skeletons w/ hand weapon & shield
Total: 160pts

8 Ghouls
Total: 64 pts

This small skirmishing unit is very effective. They are alive and as such don't need to stay close to the leader to march. With 2 poison attacks each they are great to throw against things like Ogres and Giants, things with High toughness, but poor armor saves. Also useful for charging flanks and capturing table quarters.

6 Black Knights: Banner of the Barrows, shields, Barding, Full Command
Total: 235pts

In this case it is worth having a command crew in this valuable a unit.

Banshee
Total: 90pts

Grand Total: 975, use the remaining 25 points to either buy more magic items for your heroes, upgrade a ghoul to a ghast, or add standards to the skeleton units.

Depending on terrain you can put the two units of skeletons a little apart at the center, use the Black Knights with the cursed book on one flank with the ghouls and banshee on the other.

March your solid block of skeles up at the enemy summoning more models to fill in the ranks. Put the necromancer in one of the skeleton units and just keep summoning more skeles to fill the ranks. The nice thing about not having a champion in the units is if your opponent issues a challenge you can refuse and hide the necromancer in the back to avoid combat. I usually put the necromancer on the corner of my unit as I have found most people stick their characters in the center part so even if he doesn't issue a challenge you are less likely to lose your general.

Thanks to the banner and the cursed book your black knights will be hitting your enemy on a 3+ while your enemy will need 4's or 5's to hit you.

I have found this list to be very effective in battle, if you want to go with a particular bloodline just drop the Wight Lord and replace it with whatever thrall you chose.

Remember you're the undead, the enemy has to win every round of combat with all your units, however as long as you have more models you just have to win once.

[arguleon-veq]

Great post The Long Night, you've covered pretty much everything.

+ 1 Karma.

I'm also giving Falstead and Hadhfang +1 Karma as I've seen plenty of useful replies in quite a few threads from both of you.