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who hit harder?
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Old 13 Aug 2006, 14:23   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default who hit harder?

Black Guard or Executioners in 5x2 ??
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Old 17 Aug 2006, 00:05   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

Well, both have their pros and cons. And it also depends on the enemy they're facing. Vs elitist troops black guard are better, because fo their eternal hatred. I will do it out mathematically in a moment.

Vs Empire swordsmen (WS4)
black Guard/executioners

to hit: 4.444444/3.333333
to wound: 2.222222/2.777775

Executioners are better vs standard troops as we see here.

Now vs greatswords (WS5)

to hit: 3.75/2.5
to wound: 2.5/2.083333

Vs units with WS5 black guard hit harder.

Now vs Chaos warriors (WS5 T4)

to hit: 3.75/2.5
to wound: 1.875/1.666666

The black guard are once again hit harder, although I did not factor in armour saves, and also executioners have killing blow. Therefore, I am willing to say that the executioners hit harder, although in the following round of hand to hand combat, they will be more screwed.

Also i forgot to include champions...
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Old 17 Aug 2006, 03:34   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

Empire Greatswordsmen are not WS5 for a start

I find that Black Guard are better than Executioners...and I should hope so; they're a 0-1 Rare choice of elite bodyguards, not a cheap Special unit that gives you a little bit more punch in combat.

There's a couple of times when the Executioners are actually better (when you charge a weak unit that you can forseeably wipe out/run down in the first round of combat), but for most times the Black Guard are flexible and useful in a number of circumstances. Stubborn Ld 9 is as reliable as you can really hope for, Hatred keeps you hitting (particularly against hardcore WS5 enemies) and most notably...they have I6. That's higher than some non-Elven characters. That practically means they will ALWAYS strike first against pretty mcuh anyone...and S4 is useful, not exceptional...but is still pretty damn good for taking out anything that's not T4 when combined with their other stats. Heavy armour is nothing much, but not bad either. They make an ideal choice to accompany your Highborn if you're relying on an infantry force and can centre a battleline or even lead a charge.

Executioners are best used to counter-attack any charge against your battle-line of Spearmen and crossbows, but even better to lead a charge. For 1pt more than Corsairs, you get +1WS and a Great Weapon...but lose the extra attack. Killing Blow or +1 armour against shooting...your call too. If you're playing lightly-armoured weak shooting armies, then the Corsairs are nasty pieces of work. Against tough combat monsters, you need the extra hitting power of the Executioners.

If nothing else...well...the Executioner models are badarse.
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Old 19 Aug 2006, 08:56   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

They both have a good side and a bad side, and it entirely depends on who the enemy is. it really depends on what you want.
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Old 19 Aug 2006, 22:26   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
Empire Greatswordsmen are not WS5 for a start
Alright, high elf swordmasters then. happy now? (I thought they were WS5 though... Dont know why.)

Also, black guard's hatred can be used against them.. I prefer executioners, due to the fac that they;er less expensive, and cannot be forced to overrun or whatever. Also, the modelsa re MUCH nicer (and I already own them)
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Old 20 Aug 2006, 23:19   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brownmccoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
Empire Greatswordsmen are not WS5 for a start
Alright, high elf swordmasters then. happy now? (I thought they were WS5 though... Dont know why.)
They're not WS5 either from my memory (though it's been a long time since I faced them) :P
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Old 21 Aug 2006, 11:43   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brownmccoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
Empire Greatswordsmen are not WS5 for a start
Alright, high elf swordmasters then. happy now? (I thought they were WS5 though... Dont know why.)
They're not WS5 either from my memory (though it's been a long time since I faced them) :P
actually... their stat line is impressive. They'll hit pretty much anything (a lot of character-types included) on 3's, with GW that don't suffer from strikes last, their excellent I isn't wasted in subsequent rounds... I'd love to lure a unit of them to the dark side.

Still, they all have a 5+AS, which means of course that they have no AS against anything S5 or higher. And every army has a selection of units that can do that, without GW's. That's even more concerning to me than T3.

If you can live with that, you'll truly appreciate the advantage of elven speed and skill. WS 5 can be frustrating for opponents when they charge you. ;D A lot more frustrating than shooting at BS 3, to be sure...

Use what you believe you can make work.
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Old 21 Aug 2006, 22:25   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

swordmasters are teh elites of a high elf army. Of course they have WS5.

*checks*

okay the great unclean one says they're WS6.... that's wrong... but I am 99%confident it is 5.

time for a little bit more of a comparison...

special rules:

black guard are stubborn. They have eternal hatred. Both things that have their drawbacks. eternal hatred, if I recall correctly, they have to pursue or overrun enemies in combat. This can get you baited fairly easily. Stubborn, you wont be able to fail your LD test and run if say, a unit of chaos chosen knights are lined up to charge your flank.

Executioners have killing blow. They have 1 higher S due to weapons but attack last. With executioners, most of the time, your combat wont last mroe than a 1 round of combat so the attacking last doesnt affect much. The killing blow allows them to ignore enemy armour 1/6 times and to kill them outright.

Also, the poitns factor. A block of 15 executioners w/ full command costs 191 points. 15 black guard w/ full command costs 275 points. You pay an extra 84 points to lose 1S, killing blow, to be a unit that can hold in combat for a while, while still doing damage.

Personally, I find the black guard are only better when fighting against the odds, and against WS5 guys or higher.

It's an oppinion thing in the end. I prefer executioners, as stated previously.
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Old 22 Aug 2006, 02:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brownmccoy
okay the great unclean one says they're WS6.... that's wrong... but I am 99%confident it is 5.
That's what I remember them being...and so it's NOT WS5
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Old 22 Aug 2006, 12:32   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: who hit harder?

For the record... Swordmasters have WS 6
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