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Urgh! I hate thinking.
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Old 20 Jun 2006, 01:54   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Urgh! I hate thinking.

I played Lizardmen. I was insanely good with them.
For the Toronto Conflict I want to run a Fantasy army.
I love Lizardmen so much, but they are hard to theme, and can be cheesed very easily.
I love Lustria, so I figured Amazons. and Tomb Kings.
So I mixed the two, and bam. The army I wanted.
but, Tomb Kings are not as 'good' as lizardmen when it comes to game play, and Chaos is virtually unbeatable with a TK list.
They are slow, suck in close combat and shooting. They cannot stand an shoot. They cannot kill characters like Lizardmen can.
All they have going for them is that they can create units for them selves without paying for them. and they do not have to roll for casting, and they have kick arse models.

But I love lizardmen...
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Old 20 Jun 2006, 10:30   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

Mate undead all the way. Do you like shooting grab another shooting phase do you like moving grab anther movement phase grab more models and then frighten your opponent off the board after obliterating them with some of the best models. I don't play them but I played them once and I wasn't as experienced then as I am now and it was a neaar thing. Tomb Kings all the way.
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Old 20 Jun 2006, 21:48   #3 (permalink)
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Default Lizardmen vs. Tomb Kings

But they suck at both those, so it doesnt matter, they still just get more suck. But i want a challange.

PS: GMODS: I posted twice. That was a huge accident. Please delete the other one.
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Old 21 Jun 2006, 04:48   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

I adore Orcs and always have...but;

Bretonnians have better cavalry than me...and lots more of it.

Ogre armies are full of monsters and have no weak links (that matter).

Dwarf armies have unbreakably tough heavy infantry that nothing can bash through.

Wood Elves have units that can do anything at all in an interesting way.

There's lots of things other armies can do better than you can, no matter how you structure or tailor your force and if you're trying to beat a Chaos army with brutal close combat power...well, then you need to think for a little bit (even if you play Ogres ).

I guarantee you that there are plenty of tricksy undead ways to beat a Chaos list with Tomb Kings...and I've never really played with them beyond the odd borrowed army list game in a club tourney. You've got Chariot Units, awesome magic, the ability to pop up behind those tough units of Warriors and the ability to wear them down through never running away. Take it from me, having to charge Carrion and swarms because they got in the way of my Knights is never a good day for a Chaos Lord- annoy him with this dreadfully old and timeless strategy...and follow it up with a rear charge for good measure. You've got hard-hitting Ushabti too...don't forget them when you really need them. Hold his charge and get him in the rear with your light cavalry units, chariots and whatever else is left. Summon units behind him, catch him off-guard with your speed and beat him.

I'll tell you this- you don't beat Chaos by being stupid. You have loads of options to use against him- charging stupidly into the front of his force head-on is the most stupid thing ANY army can do, even Ogres have reason to be careful of Chaos Warriors and Knights. The trick is to let him come to you as he has to, pick off his light units with your archers if you can (remember that shooting them at warriors will never ever hope to work- T4 units with a 4+ save laugh at normal missile fire) and get him in the back with your fast stuff. Beware a mixed Chaos force (a thankfully rare thing these days)...as all I just told you will mean absolutely nothing whatsoever. A mixed Chaos force is, in my mind, the single most deadly force in the entire game...narrowly edging out the less-reliable (but more tricksy) Wood Elf army for what, in my opinion, is the best army there is (to my style of play).

Know Chaos...don't fear it. Nurgle will laugh at your one true advantage, Fear, as will Slaanesh. Catch both of these out by charging them in the rear and over-whelming them with hard-hitting units and characters. True, nothing in your army stands up to a Chaos Lord and his Knights- nothing in the gave does. That's why you let him just do what he wants and charge him in the back or devastate him with magic. Khorne Lords are cruelly effective against the undead, as until they're beaten they're Immune to Psychology (which means jack all of nothing, since when they're beaten they're dead anyway). They will murder everything you have...so, once again, charge them in the back after you try to hold them...and use your swift expendable units to draw them away and separate their chargers so you can better do this. Tzeentch, lastly, is able to counter your magic to a degree...and even throw it back at you bad.

However, these things combined in an Undivided force is a nightmare. A balanced force which throws in Daemons on top of this is a sadistic move, as they are able to laugh at your Fear again. Their units don't run away and you will almost never beat them until, as I've repeated throughout, you use your speed to charge them in the back...but it's not easy most of the time. Daemon units are horrendously expensive, though, even at the lowest end...though a couple of them here and there in an Undivided force will spell your doom particularly, as they're able to give him something else you didn't expect. Throw, finally, the last nail in your coffin...Beastmen. Beastmen are not great troops, to be honest, and they're not going to win prizes for sticking around. However, they skirmish and this one little ability makes it an absolute nightmare to encircle, sneak up on or do anything nasty to the Chaos army that you need so sorely to do. How do you stop them? Can't shoot them...can't try to outfight them (your main blocks will be fighting desperately to hold back the Warriors) and if you use your Chariots and characters to murder them, you're taking them out of play by a cunning enemy. Chariots will also end your dreams very swiftly when they charge in, seeing as how 3 of them (not including Daemons as well) are able to wholly ignore your Fear...and another is able to re-roll on a minimum of Ld8 to charge. End-result, of course, being lots of broken bones. All Marauder units are almost wholly useless against you, however, barring only 'Berserkers' (naked Marauders with great weapons) that can still hurt you on the flanks, block your attacks or some other nasty trick...if they're lucky enough to pass a Fear test.

Be thankful, though, that this nightmare Chaos list is rare. Very rare. In fact, I've only ever seen a couple of them ever played...and I was duly slaughtered for my troubles by it. A normal Mortal Chaos army, though, is very clumsy and easily outmaneouvered, outshot, outzapped and generally outdone if you just remember not to rely only on your Fear to win you battles (though it's still viable against Tzeentch, to make up for the reduced effectiveness of your magic).

Don't underestimate the Tomb Kings...Fear is just a gimmick, albeit a handy one. Don't let it be your crutch.
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Old 21 Jun 2006, 18:00   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

What are you after with the post, the pros and cons of TK?

Tomb kings themselves have some extremely advantageous units that put even lizzies to shame.

TOMB KING/PRINCE: Some of the best characters in the game, acess to some formiddable magic and the "my will be done" rules, these guys mean business, good S, T and W and WS, the only problem is a low I and the embalmed rule.

HEIROPHANTS: The weakness of your army, when this guy goes, they all start to. However, use him correctly, and his incantations are very powerfull, able to make a SSC shoot again, your bone giant get there all the faster or heal a few wounds or pick up some stragglers.

SKELETONS: Generally, skellies are crap with below average stats. However, they're undead and not too badly priced. En Masse, these guys can cuase trouble, and with TK magic, just keep on coming back. As horsemen, it gives you some fast attack, they're bows are absolutely fantastic and heavy horsemen give you that extra edge, and still a core troop!

CHARIOTS: Slightly weaker than other chariots, these guys can be grouped into units and can really lay down the hurt, fast due to it's light nature, these truly are the jewel of the tomb kings.

SWARMS: Despite never liking swarms myself, they are great at holding up your foe for a while with high wounds, however the low everything else makes them good at little else.

CARRION: A flyer, fast, pretty tough with an average attack, but undead, and a few of them could really cause some flanking trouble.

TOMB GUARD: These guys in a unit have got better than average T and S, have some good staying power and access to Tomb Blades. In a unit their quite tasty indeed despite the higher points.

USHABTI: Strong, hard hitting, lots of attacks, can be regenerated by magic, constructs, fear causing, undead. It's got everything going for it except points and perhaps not the highest toughness

TOMB SCORPIONS: Come from below rule, which can be awesome if luck is on your side, high S and T, good attacks and lots of wounds, this baby can dish them out as well as recieve. poison, killing blow and magic resistance, the ONLY bad thin about these babies is the points.

GIANT: Need I say any more, special attacks, and the ability for an endless assault capapble of wiping out an ENTIRE unit, this guy is truly unstoppable with fantastic S, T and W! His only achillies heal is high points.

SSC: This baby is the ultimate catapult in the entire game, with skulls of the foe it can reap terror and even fire its massive ordanance twice. Not to be taken lightly.

CASKET OF SOULS: Every model who can draw line of site taking a hit, that could be an entire army, a fearsome weapon to behold, that needs little else said.

GENERAL: Keep the heirophant safe, take a tomb king and you could have a very nifty army, chariots as core, and a few special and rare choices could lead to an interesting style of play.

If anyone has more ideas, or think im full of rubbish, add ou own bits.
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 00:14   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

What are you after with the post, the pros and cons of TK?

I really carried on about what he says about Tomb Kings being useless against Chaos. I will go through your analysis and how these units work in general to my experience

TOMB KING/PRINCE: Some of the best characters in the game, acess to some formiddable magic and the "my will be done" rules, these guys mean business, good S, T and W and WS, the only problem is a low I and the embalmed rule.


Nasty close combat characters, belonging on chariots (naturally) and a King lets you take Light Chariots for Core choices...which alone makes him a strong choice as these units are, to my mind, vital to a Tomb Kings army (and face it, if you didn't want them- why did you choose Khemri?). Their nice Will Be Done rule also allows a little more to leech away at enemy Dispel dice...or sneak out a spell now and then, but don't expect anything amazing from it. I'd say they're a solid choice and you're definitely not cheating yourself out of anything by a King...and a Prince here and there adds to the bunch of the unit he's with. Taking them to add bite to a critical charge is their one true use and if you don't get away with it, they're useless- like all mounted characters. One of the best? Not really...but Kings are mandatory (to my mind) and a Prince or two is an acceptable luxury if you can take it (where else is the punch coming from?).

HEIROPHANTS: The weakness of your army, when this guy goes, they all start to. However, use him correctly, and his incantations are very powerfull, able to make a SSC shoot again, your bone giant get there all the faster or heal a few wounds or pick up some stragglers.


Very very nasty pieces of work...and ones you should rely on to boost the entire army's effectiveness. Take as many as you can if you want to totally dominate the magic phase and replenish losses, attack more and go faster...all-around, if you didn't splash out on Princes, take loads of these guys- unexpected charges being the most deadly. Easily killed, but really...having more of them is ample defence against this happening.

SKELETONS: Generally, skellies are crap with below average stats. However, they're undead and not too badly priced. En Masse, these guys can cuase trouble, and with TK magic, just keep on coming back. As horsemen, it gives you some fast attack, they're bows are absolutely fantastic and heavy horsemen give you that extra edge, and still a core troop!


Fear is their drawcard...and it works wonders against basic troops like Orc Boyz, Empire Infantry and Skaven (ohhhhh yeah, you better believe Skaven). They're quite amazing at holding up enemies as basic infantry (I'd take them without spears- they cost points, the small damage they do means nothing much because they will occasionally be charging, need to survive longer with that 4+ save and generally it's the characters and chariots that do the hurt) as it takes forever to bash them apart without anything but tough infantry (that take too long to kill any of) or heavy cavalry (that just steamrollers them). I see these as reasonable and effective light infantry that can hold their ground long enough for your nasty surprises to get into their rear...or to charge and tie up something if there's no other way. I'm not a big fan of their cavalry (points not spent on better chariots) or archers (that die too easily to hold enemies up). These are necessary to form and hold a battleline, so take plenty of them.

CHARIOTS: Slightly weaker than other chariots, these guys can be grouped into units and can really lay down the hurt, fast due to it's light nature, these truly are the jewel of the tomb kings.

Take a King and these are Core choices. If you don't do this, well...there's no real place for you with this second-rate Vampire Counts army. As flankers and rear-chargers, especially backed up with a Prince, these things are devastating. I love them.

SWARMS: Despite never liking swarms myself, they are great at holding up your foe for a while with high wounds, however the low everything else makes them good at little else.

Swarms are nightmare units for halting heavy cavalry that will over-run your flanks...and skirmishers or other such. They have some funky movement rules and sneaky tricks are always good for most armies...they can't be sped up with magic, so I'd leave them behind most games to be honest. I forget how the Scarabs work...but they sounded pretty nasty to bob up out of nowhere and flank someone.

CARRION: A flyer, fast, pretty tough with an average attack, but undead, and a few of them could really cause some flanking trouble.

Another staple unit and absolutely terrifying in their intended role for killing war machine crews, lone wizards and flying right into the middle of heavy cavalry/night goblins with fanatics and Frenzied units which you can lead where they don't want to go. Tie the enemy up and buzz around causing havoc and these will earn their points every game...or scare your enemy into wasting them.

TOMB GUARD: These guys in a unit have got better than average T and S, have some good staying power and access to Tomb Blades. In a unit their quite tasty indeed despite the higher points.

Necessary to my mind to center your line around a Battle Standard...but that's it. They're slightly harder to kill and a bit tougher, but really...your damage isn't done by your battleline, it's the fast-moving backstabbers that do the hurt. I'd still never field an army without them for the Icon though...

USHABTI: Strong, hard hitting, lots of attacks, can be regenerated by magic, constructs, fear causing, undead. It's got everything going for it except points and perhaps not the highest toughness

Amazingly nasty and swift Ogre-like units that can lay the smackdown on an enemy flank or just mob a mass of infantry on their own. If you've got to attack, then these are the guys for the job and will murder an enemy battleline if they get a chance to enfilade...as they've got more staying power than Chariots (though you should rely on auto-breaking from Fear). Excellent pressure units in this role.

TOMB SCORPIONS: Come from below rule, which can be awesome if luck is on your side, high S and T, good attacks and lots of wounds, this baby can dish them out as well as recieve. poison, killing blow and magic resistance, the ONLY bad thin about these babies is the points.


Can't really add anything that's not been said here or before by me as well...just a bit too costly, but sometimes you need the hitting power.

GIANT: Need I say any more, special attacks, and the ability for an endless assault capapble of wiping out an ENTIRE unit, this guy is truly unstoppable with fantastic S, T and W! His only achillies heal is high points.

This thing is an absolute beast...and unstoppably deadly if you can get around the enemy with it...or, if you're being especially mean, just run it in the middle of your army and go headlong into the enemy battleline to disrupt it. Chances are it's tough enough (and can be healed) to take it...and mash up a few things along the way. If nothing else, these things scare people...a lot. Terror alone makes this a necessary addition for big battles.

SSC: This baby is the ultimate catapult in the entire game, with skulls of the foe it can reap terror and even fire its massive ordanance twice. Not to be taken lightly.

This thing is obscenely powerful and an excellent war machine. Since you don't get shooting elsewhere, this is your one stop place to shop if you feel you're missing out on a shooting phase...and can disrupt the enemy battleline, skirmishers (without characters to keep them going) and light cavalry. Likewise, their Fear protects them -sometimes- from weak units sneaking around and trying to kill them.

CASKET OF SOULS: Every model who can draw line of site taking a hit, that could be an entire army, a fearsome weapon to behold, that needs little else said.

Indiana Jones. That's all I will say.

GENERAL: Keep the heirophant safe, take a tomb king and you could have a very nifty army, chariots as core, and a few special and rare choices could lead to an interesting style of play.


Take a King, take lots of chariots and Warriors, form a tough battleline around your Icon-led Guard...and then just advance towards the enemy and wear his magic defences down before unleashing your own endless powers. Your fast units can rove around and hit him in the back and magic is your best friend with doing this...and keeping your units big and alive in the interim. Monsters, characters and Ushabti are your extra bits of punch where you absolutely must have it...and a single turn charge of Chariots isn't enough to pull it off (against very heavy infantry mainly).

That's my take anyway...haha...not a Tactica, but better than the crap they put in the latest White Dwarf about them. It's not my own army...I rarely see or even read about Khemri hear...and it's been a while since I played them...but in any case, that's my experience against them and the occasional game with them.
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 01:21   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

Ah, this catapult seems good.
I thought the Casket was a Lord...
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Old 22 Jun 2006, 13:42   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

Has anyone here had a go at converting a still-living Nehekharan army using one of the human lists?


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Old 22 Jun 2006, 17:34   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth
Has anyone here had a go at converting a still-living Nehekharan army using one of the human lists?


Gary
Not to my knowlage, but the bretts will do it well, or Cathay when and if they get an army.

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Old 22 Jun 2006, 17:51   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Urgh! I hate thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth
Has anyone here had a go at converting a still-living Nehekharan army using one of the human lists?


Gary
No army exists which can really compare to it...the real problem are the chariots. No other army has that sheer number of scythe-choppy death at all...except for, say, High Elves from Tiranoc...but the statlines of the old world are a fair way off even the best human troops. Still, if you're obsessed with doing them, that'd be the only one that can field that many Chariots without resorting to the only real alternative- goblins.

That's right...goblins. They still have almost the same stats as humans (just lower Ld, I and WS) and could represent the basic citizen-soldiers of the old Tomb Kings...and they have plenty of cheap chariots and fast light cavalry (with bows). Just make sure you take nothing else but Goblins (and lots of them) and you'd be fine...really...Goblin Warbosses aren't all that shocking in close combat to be honest...and you can just think up better things for Goblin Magic. It'd be a stretch...but I think you could do it. On top of that, for the more exotic units, you're going to have a problem...but you can use Black Orcs to count as Royal (now Tomb) Guards...or lots of human mercenaries to represent your elite disciplined troops (not lowly slave archers and peasants that the Goblin units represent).

There...bout all I can think of really...Bretonnians have no Chariots, nor do Dogs of War or the Empire. There's Chaos Chariots...but I don't think the Kings of old were anywhere near as deadly as Chaos Lords. Still, it's all up to you and so long as you explain it to your enemy, you'll be fine :P
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