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Starting Vampire counts, need some advice
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Old 19 May 2006, 00:20   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

Well, I went to Gamesday, and the night before, I went to the peoples house we carpooled with , and fell in love with fantasy. Went to gamesday and got the rulebook (bad idea since the new on is comin out, but I will get familiar with the rules) and the vampire counts codex. I know that I either want to play Necrarch's, straight Von Carstein, or Lahmai (everyone underestimates them)

I would like a list of pro's, cons, and tactics in general for the bloodlines, and also what heroes Lamia should take.
All else will be well appreciated
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Old 19 May 2006, 14:24   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

Huzzah! Fantasy is awesome.

Vampire Counts are a really cool army who play in a different style to many others. Let's go over some pros and cons. I'm assuming that no matter which army you use you will use the normal list and not the appendix list.

Von Carstien:

We'll start with the easy one. Basically it's WYSIWIG with these guys, everyone is based on them! They're not great at any one thing, but they're good at everything. They've got a really cool classic look to them. There's a few really cool conversion/modelling oppurtinities to theme your force. Use empire bits, dire wolves and a Black Coach for a very strongly themed Carstien army. Also if you ever get a large army and feel like trying special characters Manfred is one of the best ones around! A level 4 wizard with a 3+ ward save and he gets a magic dice for every wound he causes in combat! YIKES!

Nechrarchs:

Creepy. Best way to describe these guys. You have potential for some very serious magic power with this list. Your general should be at least a level 3 wizard (Vampire count + level 2 upgrade + nehekarahas noble blood) or level 4 if you take a Vampire Lord. If you don't take the lord take one necromancer as a scroll caddy and 2 thralls. Give one thrall the ablity that lets him generate a power dice, and give the other one an arcane item. There's some very powerful bound spell items available to Vampire Counts and in a 2000 point Nechrarch army you can have them all!!!

Lahmians:

If you want the enmies chracters dead this is the way to do it. With ungodly intiative and some horrifying Ld based powers and abilities Lahmian vampires can take out enemy leaders well before they even get a chance to strike (and even if you don't kill them there's a good chance they won't feel like stiking back!)
Make sure you give your Lahmian lord at least 2 of the powers that effect enemy troops, because even with -1 ld some people will pass the first test, so make them take a 2nd!
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Old 19 May 2006, 19:09   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

well, the only weird list I would use is Necrarch (2 zombie dragons!!?!?!) and Lahmia (can we say stegadon?)
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Old 19 May 2006, 21:25   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

I not even gonna comment on the Necrarch. Thats just EVIL.
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Old 19 May 2006, 22:49   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

My 2000 necrarch army I am thinking about is
A count, lvl 2 upgrade, sword of unholy power, Black Periapt, Nehekhara's noble blood, nightmare

V Thrall, Nehekhara's noble blood, nightmare

Necromancer, lvl 2, Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll

Necromancer, lvl 2, Power familiar

3 x 9 skeletons, captain, full command. Spears, Light armor

4 Black Knights 1 hell knight, full command, banner of the barrows

2 x Zombie Dragons

Pretty nasty list, 11 casting dice, potential of 16. 8 dispel. Have the vampires stick with the black knights...... and wape the walls via magic, and have the necros in the skeleton squads to make them grow huge! The dragons flank and initiate a pincer.

My Knights who say Nih! list is pretty bad also, everything charges over 12"

Question, when giving a Strigoi Vampire Bat Form, does he move 12"? or just his 6"?
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Old 20 May 2006, 05:08   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

That list wouldn't last five seconds.

You're obviously thinking in 40k terms where 10 men is "full" squad and 20 men is huge.

In fantasy a normal sized unit is 20. Large is 30, huge is 40.

That list has less than 40 models in it. It will never reach combat even with all sorts of magical aid.

In fantasy CORE Troops are CORE. They're NEEDED.
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Old 20 May 2006, 19:28   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

Actually, it could do, IF you decided to spend your fist couple of turns Nehek-ing the skeleton units up to respectable sizes. 11 casting dice can give you a lot of skeletons. (but zombies are far more fun to play with)

Though you'd still want a bit more meat to begin with. Drop the lonely dragons... (you're not using the appendix list there by any chance?) and get some more skels, zombies or maybe a couple of bat swarms.

Strigoi with Bat Form (remember, you gotta sing it, nananananananana, BAT FORM!) moves as fast as [flyers always move]
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Old 22 May 2006, 18:42   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

Keep in mind you can't use the appendix list without opponent's approval as such the only way you can use a zombie dragon is to mount it on a lord, and taking a zombie dragon uses up another hero slot meaning you could only field 1 lord on dragon and 2 heroes.

Also zombie dragons are probably among the weakest of the dragons. Since your lord will be on a zombie dragon even if you put him in a unit of knights he will still recieve fire as if he were alone. If your lord gets destroyed your army crumbles to dust because undead, except wights have really bad leadership. This makes him a target even when hidden in a unit.

Also giving the sword of unholy power to a necrach isn't that great an idea. While it will give you more power, the necrach can't wear any armour so all you get is the save for being mounted on the dragon. A str 4+ attack, especially black powder weapons means that you'll get no meaningful save. This means that every ranged weapon and spell the enemy have will be directed against your lord. Also since a necrach is the worst of the combat vampires it will mean that if you get challenged to single combat by another lord there is a very good chance you will lose.

2 bolt throwers or a single canon, lobba, trebuchet, mortar, stone thrower shot can mean that your general is now dead and your entire army will be taking leadership tests to keep from falling apart. This means that your unit of 9 skeletons can be entirely wiped out with a single bad leadership roll.

Putting your general with your black knights also means that you won't be able to charge until turn 3 or 4. Your army can't march unless the general is close by. This means that your lord on a dragon will need to hang back, if your general rushes ahead it means that the rest of your army will be left plodding along and your black knights will be surrounded and killed.

Also those 11 power dice don't mean much if your opponent is high elves, tzeencth, or khorne. A khorne army can generate 10 dispel dice to counter you quite easily as every one of their units will generate dispel dice. Then with that much spellcasting in your army if you miscast it can mean the death of one of the mages(necromancers break easily) or the end of your magic phase, which your list relies on strongly.

A vampire counts army is a horde army, I usually field max sized units of skeletons, a full 20 so as to get the rank bonus. If you field your skeles the minimum of 4 wide that would mean only a +1 rank bonus.

Also you're equipping skeletons with spears is only useful if you get charged, not if you charge. Getting charged by a unit of 12 empire swordsmen means you will probably take at least 1-2 wounds. You will probably deal back 6-7 attacks back of those, 3 or 4 will, 0 or 1 will wound as such the swordsmen will take 0-1 wounds. They will have a +1 or +2 rank bonus and outnumber you. This means you will lose at minimum 2-3 more skeletons.

If a group of knights hits the skeletons you will take at least 3 hits, all will wound, and you will get no saves(and that's not counting the horse attacks), deal 0 wounds in return, and then lose more to combat resolution.

If a group of chaos knights hits you then you stand to lose up at least 5 from the knights (more from the horses), and more from combat resolution.

The way you can beat almost any enemy is to have 20 or more skeletons, a full +3 rank bonus, a standard, and outnumber them. This gives you a good +5 to combat resolution even if they kill 4 of your skeles. Also if you outnumber the foe and win since you cause fear they will auto-break and you can try to run them down.

I like giving my skeletons a handweapon, shield, and light armour. This gives them a 5+ against shooting and a 4+ in close combat, increasing greatly their attack power. The 6+ light armour save just isn't worth the points alone.

Your black knights are a strong unit, but Grave guards are even stronger, especially with banner of the barrows. A unit of black knights can tango with a unit of chosen chaos knights and have a chance at beating them, but a unit of Grave guard has a great chance of destroying them, especially if you give them halberds.

A good strategy is to have the graveguard hold the center, use the black knights to take on the enemy's heavy cavalry and the mass of skeletons to tie down the wings.

It's an interesting list, but the problems with it are.
1) It requires an opponents permission and a lot will say no just because of the 2 dragons.
2) No real close combat power,(even zombie dragons are pretty weak aside from their terror power)
3) Sending the general into CC is extremely risky
4) Skeletons are too small and any str 4 weapon (and there are lots) remove their armour save entirely.
5) Don't forget raising skeletons count for victory points. You can seem to win a battle, but actually lose because you ended up raising 20 skeletons and giving your opponent an additional 200 victory points if he kills them and they do die easily.

I posted a in depth on the VC earlier on in these threads that goes into every unit.
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=15462.0
It also discusses the 5 bloodlines, my 2 personal favorites being Blood Dragon and Necrach.
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Old 22 May 2006, 20:49   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

well, my real necrarch army isnt cheesy. I was experimenting.
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Old 22 May 2006, 20:57   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Starting Vampire counts, need some advice

The first list you posted wasn't cheesy. It was inffective. Post up the latest list and we'll give you more advice on it.

Remember the Undead need numbers. You will lose lots of troops it's important to have more troops left after you suffer casualties. Undead are excellent at wars of attrition. (Because they have a tendency to get back up :)
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