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Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 01:37   #1 (permalink)
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Default Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

Played against Tyranids today. To put simply, Shieldwall for the Tyrant Guard states that a Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character. (Emphasis mine)


So when the unit assaulted through cover (in total, a Hive Tyrant, 3 Guards, and a Prime), I wanted to strike at the Tyrant Guards (since 1 was already wounded). My opponent said I could not, since the Hive Tyrant and 3 Guards formed now a single unit. He went on to say that the Hive Tyrant could never leave the unit, only join it like an IC, and that for all intents and purposes, every single other rule concerning ICs are completely ignored (including directing attacks in combat). The phrase [I put in italics] only counts for him joining it, but nothing else, so he said.


I let his ruling go because it seemed by fluff correct and not hard to imagine, but I wasn't sure. Him sprinkling the inflicted wounds around that unit hurt me every time I threw something into combat with it. Not to mention Regeneration saved it from death (I inflicted 6 wounds on that stupid thing throughout the game, and every Regeneration roll passed).
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 01:42   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

The RAW is unclear, to be sure, but I personally feel that's just being silly. You mean he can't even LEAVE the unit? Just join? That sounds comedic in its stupidity. As for singling him out in close combat... I'm unsure. It does say he may join them as if he were an IC, he doesn't become and IC for combat purposes. It's in dire need of an FAQ.

The fluff could go either way - some would say singling him out in CC means that Shieldwall is useless, but I think that's ridiculous. Perhaps Shieldwall was intended only as a buffer against shooting? Or maybe they protect him in CC as well, similar to how retinues used to work. Again, it's really not clear. I'm just happy I run a winged one and don't have to bother with this nonsense. :P
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 01:46   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

In close combat you could single him out cause he's a monsterous creature. You can also single out the prime cause the guard does not count as a retinue. Shieldwall only helps out with shooting.

The tyrant gains and loses ic status when he joins. They keyword is like an independant chracter and it doesn't state gain ic statis.

Beat me to the punch. Anyway if it was a retniue it would clear things up but it isn't a retinue.

On page 51. Of the main book it states in this case the mc would act like infantry. So it would be like infantry joining a unit.

Looking at shieldwall again it looks like you wouldn't be able to single him out in combat cause he would count like adding a commissar to a guard unit or a mystic to an Inquisitor squad.

So the warrior can be singled out and the tyrant can't.
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 02:29   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

While I agree with the others that the RAW is scanty at best, I personally agree with your friend. To me, the fluff argument makes the most sense; the Guard are specifically bred to stick to the Tyrant like glue, so why would they let him out of their non-existent sight? Yeah, the Tyrant should be able to Synaptically control them to walk away, but why would it do that? Anyways, to me I'd let it ride until an FAQ.

The more concerning thing from your post is the mention of Regeneration. You say you wounded the Tyrant 6 times, and he regained all six wounds? You mean he rolled a 6 at the start of the turn for every wound you inflicted?! If so, he's a lucky duck. But I'm curious; the phrasing of your sentence made it sound more like he used Regenerate like WHFB's Regenerate, which functions more like Feel No Pain.
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 05:41   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishdelinquent
While I agree with the others that the RAW is scanty at best, I personally agree with your friend. To me, the fluff argument makes the most sense; the Guard are specifically bred to stick to the Tyrant like glue, so why would they let him out of their non-existent sight? Yeah, the Tyrant should be able to Synaptically control them to walk away, but why would it do that? Anyways, to me I'd let it ride until an FAQ.

The more concerning thing from your post is the mention of Regeneration. You say you wounded the Tyrant 6 times, and he regained all six wounds? You mean he rolled a 6 at the start of the turn for every wound you inflicted?! If so, he's a lucky duck. But I'm curious; the phrasing of your sentence made it sound more like he used Regenerate like WHFB's Regenerate, which functions more like Feel No Pain.
Actually I came up with the fluff reasons to let it go (and no, I never mentioned he was my friend, never met the guy before).


As for the Regeneration, no he just got lucky. 3 of the wounds he suffered were due to Perils of the Warp (Runes of Warding, I was Eldar). He suffered 1 Perils on Turn 2, and took a hit from a unit of Fire Dragons. He rolled two 6s that next turn. The rest of it just went back and forth. One wound was saved from Catalyst. The other 2 wounds were regained over time.

I have to admit, I made some fairly poor choices throughout the whole of the game. I attacked his gaunts with my council instead of planning a double-up an attack on them, sprinkled my firepower around instead of concentrating it, didn't pay attention to his Tervigons completely. He took 3 Tervigons and 3 units of Termagaunts for troop choices. The rest of his army aside from that HQ was nothing but Hive Guard and a Tyrannofex. It was designed to be a counter-attack shooty Tyranid army with a heavy HQ backbone for close support.

I cut through 6 units of Termagaunts (a total of some 65) and a Tervigon, then wounded his HQ. My Fire Dragons didn't do very well throughout the game either but oh well.
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If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 06:46   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

I can never understand why people make the game so complicated :huh:

Hive Tyrants joins the Tyrant Guards as if the Hive Tyrant is an IC so if you want to shoot at the Hive Tyrant, you have shoot it along with the Tyrant Guards. They count as one unit for shooting purposes. When in CC, the Hive Tyrant can be single out just like a normal IC.

I don't know what's so hard about that :-\
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 07:52   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenai
I can never understand why people make the game so complicated :huh:

Hive Tyrants joins the Tyrant Guards as if the Hive Tyrant is an IC so if you want to shoot at the Hive Tyrant, you have shoot it along with the Tyrant Guards. They count as one unit for shooting purposes. When in CC, the Hive Tyrant can be single out just like a normal IC.

I don't know what's so hard about that :-\
But he's not an ic. If it said he gained ic statis and can't leave than it would be differant. But it states he joins like an independant chracter but doesn't become an independant chracter. It's like a regular commissar joing a guard squad it just happens before the guard squad is fielded.

Only IC chracters can be singled out in combat. I remember in the last edition monsterous creatures use to stand out like the avator and the exarch guard. But they decided not to make monsterous creatures stand out like that. I had to look at the main book under mc and it states they're treated like infantry except certain conditions. It actually makes sense not to be able to target him in combat still.

The warrior can be singled out cause he's an ic and the guard is not a retinue.
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 08:18   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

Quote:
But he's not an ic. If it said he gained ic statis and can't leave than it would be differant. But it states he joins like an independant chracter but doesn't become an independant chracter. It's like a regular commissar joing a guard squad it just happens before the guard squad is fielded.
No, it's like a Commissar joining an Infantry Squad. Commissars are bought as part of the Infantry Squad except the Lord Commissar who is an IC. No, the Hive Tyrant just join the Tyrant Guards as if it was an IC but it doesn't make it one single unit for all intents and purposes. If they really did want to make them a single unit, they would have allow to but Tyrant Guards as part as the Hive Tyrant's wargear just like Fenrisian Wolves or Commissars but they didn't. They made 2 separate entries for each one.

Thus Hive Tyrants acts like an IC in a Tyrant Guard unit. To simplify matters even further, the Tyrant Guard can never go to ground because MCs can't go to ground and the Hive Tyrant, with the Tyrant Guards, is an MC so it can't go to ground thus it cross out the possibility for the Hive Tyrant and the Tyrant Guards to go to ground to gain cover saves. Also all MCs have Move Through Cover Special Rules. ICs with Move Through Cover don't get to use it when they join a unit that doesn't have Move Through Cover Special Rules. So when the Hive Tyrant joins a Tyrant Guard unit, it can't its Move Through Cover Special Rules. All this is exactly what happens to an IC. So the Hive Tyrant can be singled out in Close Combat even if its with a unit of Tyrant Guards. Also the enemy can't single out the Hive Tyrant for Shooting so it must fire at the entire unit (Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard).

Quote:
Only IC chracters can be singled out in combat. I remember in the last edition monsterous creatures use to stand out like the avator and the exarch guard. But they decided not to make monsterous creatures stand out like that. I had to look at the main book under mc and it states they're treated like infantry except certain conditions. It actually makes sense not to be able to target him in combat still.
Well this isn't the last edition. This is the 5th Edition.

Quote:
The warrior can be singled out cause he's an ic and the guard is not a retinue.
Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guards as an IC all the rules for IC applies to it including singling out in CC and shooting at the whole unit in Shooting.
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 08:29   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

It boils to down to the interpretation of "may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character". It either means that the Hive Tyrant only follows the IC rules for joining a unit, or he follows all of the rules when with the unit exactly as if he were an IC.

I'm under the impression that "exactly as if it were" means just that. So no, he doesn't gain IC status, but he follows all the IC rules, treated exactly like an IC, when it comes to being part of a unit of Hive Guard (but no other unit type).


But there's another thing to it. When it comes to deployment, in a Dawn of War setting, do they deploy separately as two HQ choices, or together? (I think Zenai said separately at one point somewhere.) The thing is that the Hive Tyrant doesn't count it as a Retinue. Without that statement in the rules, I see less support for the Hive Tyrant and the Guard being a single unit together. But I can see how someone else can say that a Retinue wouldn't be fitting here, too so a whole new rule needed to be made.
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If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
Then the Elati have mastered a solo piece,
Of every instrument.


Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 29 Apr 2010, 08:41   #10 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: Tyrant Guard + Hive Tyrant as a Unit

Yes, Hive Tyrants and Tyrant Guards are two separate units but both comes under HQ and also the Tyrant Guards don't take up a HQ slot. So, in a DoW deployment, it's either one of them or neither.
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