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Question on Genestealer upgrades
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Old 15 Jul 2009, 09:58   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Question on Genestealer upgrades

Hello Tau online.
I recently aquired a pack of Genestealers and had a few Questions to ask:
1. How do you model Scuttlers?
2. Are they worth the points?
3. Should I equip extended carpace?
Most of them i have already given scything talons and rending, with two of each head piece excluding acid maw. Replies would be appreciated.
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Old 15 Jul 2009, 14:15   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

1. I never model scuttlers, since it's kinda hard to do. I simply tell my opponent that my Genestealers has this ability.
2. YES. Not only does this allow you a Scout move before the game starts, but you can choose to outflank instead. This saved me in a game against a Deathwing Army list.
3. Personally, I wouldn't. Due to the prevelance of cover now available in 5th edition, you're going to be getting a 4+ cover save at the least most of the time. I would use the points saved on Extended Carapace to buy more Genestealers instead.
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Old 15 Jul 2009, 14:40   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

I agree with Mage.

Scuttlers isn't really that easy to model, it's also not really a biomorph but a tactic; I've never seen people bother with WYSIWYG in regards to that upgrade.

Scuttlers is totally worth it. Awesome ability. Last game I came onto the flank with my 12-man Stealer unit and immediately charged a group of terminators. 5 dead Termies, 1 dead Stealer. :P

I wouldn't equip the +Sv. It gets too expensive. If you play your cards right with the Scuttlers, you should be able to dart into cover and avoid fire. Carapace is really only useful on foot-slogging Stealers, in my opinion.
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Old 15 Jul 2009, 16:53   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

Both Mage and Droids are spot on.

Modelling scuttlers is hard to do, most people just tell their opponents. As for worth it, absolutely. The ability to outflank is fantastic.

Extended carapace is very much a preference thing. Some people don't like it, as they think that it makes genestealers too expensive. While it does make them expensive, I love it. Cover saves are good and all, but they aren't foolproof. Sometimes your stealers WILL get caught out in the open, or become the victims of flamer fire. At that point, your cover isn't worth anything and a model you're paying 20 points for will die very, very quickly. The extra save is expensive, but I feel that if I'm paying so much for my genestealers I should add a little more insurance onto them. Most basic infantry weapons have AP5, which deny you your armor save. That means your stealers will get shredded out in the open by basic enemy fire, and that's not something I want to let happen. The 4+ save makes them more expensive, but helps protect them vs. basic fire.

We can argue in circles about it really, but at the end of the day it really comes to down to your own personal preference. I'd experiment with and without the upgrade, and find which version you like better.
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Old 15 Jul 2009, 23:25   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

My vote is for EC, but I would equip EC on your genestealers based on what the meta was in your area and even down to a per-game basis. Everyone in my area plays Space Marines, so I take it all the time. Their basic weapons bypass a 5+ armor save.

I would still model EC on your genestealers so you have the choice, and just tell your opponent whether or not your army has taken them. Most people are easy going with this and will let it slide, and this will be fine unless you know you're going to be getting into tournaments and such. Even then, people don't even know how to recognize Tyranid upgrades.
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Old 16 Jul 2009, 01:42   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

1. No
2. Yes. For the sheer fact that you can outflank. I recommend fleshhooks and a lictor or two if you go this route. As a tau player I'll make you come get me in the terrain and it looks pretty sad when fire warriors win combat against genestealers.

3. Absolutly not for these reasons.
A. You get a +4 cover save rather easy if you run behind your gaunts. Hell swarms give you a cover save now.

B. A competant player would feild some ap4 weapons. Like heavy bolters, assault cannons, railgun subminition, missle pods, auto cannons, heavy flamers, psi-cannon, warp blast from horrors, and the ap 4 list just go on and on like whirlwinds barrage weapons. The point is I live and die by ap4 cause it kills everything but marines dead. Most season played will feild a good bit of ap4 weapons making the upgrade a waste of points.

C. 2 squads of genestealers would cost 96 points to fully upgrade those two squads. For me that's 3 less warriors, or 19 spinegaunts, or 16 termagaunts, or 9 homogaunts, or 6 regular genestealers, or for around 20 more points I can feild a dakka fex, or even a lictor with points to spare. I run nids and did ec and no ec. The ec is great against noobs or even a good shock value to a pro who wondered why you did that. That doesn't stop my rapid fireing kroot mowing down your +4 save genestealers.

D. Ok a 5 for a save isn't great. You get no save vs ap 5 weapons. But a +4 save isn't all that great either. Just look at how well tau fire warriors fare with that + 4 save. The main point is cover is the genestealers friend. If you have no concept on how to use cover than maybe you should get the 4+ save witch isn't all that great.

E. Also this is nids. You have the worst saves in the game so get over it. Your strength is in numbers and more quantity over quality. Honestly orcs do this better than us. Even with cheaper guard we do the number thing better. A genestealer with scuttle and ec will hit you 23 pts. That's almost double a marine with a worst save. To me ec is worth it on a hive tyrant or broodlord. Anything else it's just a waste of points. I seen people spend like 500 pts in ec for their army. Than they wonder why I plow over the same guy and have like over 100 models with 6 monsterous creatures.
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Old 16 Jul 2009, 03:30   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

When considering extended carapace everyone focuses on shooting attacks, and all the points have been covered.
But please also consider melee. Against all normal troopers from every army you get an armour save in melee. Against horde style armies, Orks, Guard and other Nids for example, the massive amount of dice they can roll at you can drag down units of genestealers. Ignoring an extra 1 in 3 wounds can add up in many battles.

My personal preference is to not upgrade with extended carapace, for me I want my upgrades to be usefull in every battle, and EC will not be good against everyone in every battle. Same logic is why I don't upgrade with things like Implant Attack, flesh hooks and the like. They are points well spent when you get to use them, but an extra body on the ground is always usefull.
For this reason I consider Scuttlers to be a good upgrade, you can use it in ever battle and its usefull against any opponent.
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Old 16 Jul 2009, 05:00   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

Wow. No fleshhooks for your genestealers. Let's play and I'll show you why you should have that. Last time I played against nids was a guy that used ec and didn't use fleshhooks. He got lucky and killed my commander and hammerhead on the outflank. He should had won but lost because my while army was running into terrain and rapid firing away. With 24 fire warriors I killed 30 gaunts and 24 genestealers by shooting and running in terrain. I would always go first and defensive grenades helped too. It was funny seeing 12 fire warriors winning combat against 7 genestealers. My kroot racked up 24 stealers a fex, broodlord, and 15 gaunts. Atleast put fleshhooks on your broodlord. All my genestealers have hooks cause a good player will have his men in terrain. I rather go at int6 than at int1.
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Old 16 Jul 2009, 09:27   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

Thankyou so much to everyone, your help has been invaluable. And now to build the rest of my army. Expect more questions... many more.
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Old 17 Jul 2009, 23:13   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Question on Genestealer upgrades

We will be waiting.
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