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Regarding Fast Attack options...
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Old 27 Feb 2009, 15:32   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Default Regarding Fast Attack options...

Now, I've read and re-read the Ravener thread prior to posting this because I am still unclear of the value or the possible nerf of the Fast Attack options in 5th edition.

With that said.. now that I actually HAVE a Tyranid brood I'm beginning to look where to go in the future and I was giving a long, HARD look at doing a Genestealer/Fast Attack army.

Looking at the idea I am specifically looking at the options of Infiltrate, Scuttling, and Deep Strike.

My Fast Attack options are as follows:
Warriors (brood 3 - 9) x3 (Winged, Rending, Scything) @114
Raveners (brood 1 - 6) x3 (Deep Strike, Rending, Scything) @120
Gargoyles (brood 8-32) x10 (Deep Strike, Fleshborers) @120

MY analysis:

Warriors do NOT get deep strike meaning I essentially place them FIRST in my army. They have Synapse but those are not even a factor in a GS army. So to even get them into battle faster I gave them the Winged ability to simulate the DS ability and move them faster up the field (13-18" per turn, no shooting). They have less BS/WS than the warriors AND 1 less attack.

Raveners can deep strike. I can roll my die and +-12 inches (based on scatter) land across the table. No movement phase. During shoot phase I can run (or get into cover) up to 6". They get an extra BS/WS/I and an EXTRA attack (with rending mind you). The only real blow is they cannot assault as soon as they deep strike. But they get the same W as warriors so it is essentially the same as coming within shooting range with the warriors and then having to suck up an extra turn worth of them shooting at me.

Gargoyles seem to be the laughing stock right now. Flying rats are essentially played to shoot at 12". But because of this they CAN shoot during after being deepstriked. So if I were to drop a deepstrike of gargoyles over the unit, fail and get scattered (only up to 12") I can still shoot that turn with a full unit of 10 Gargoyles of the same points at 3 Raveners or 3 Warriors. At a space marine squad that means I still hit on 4+. He who shoots first tends to laugh last :-)

Also to consider... for fairly cheap I can upgrade the Raveners with Deathspitters to recieve an AP5 Assault Blast weapon to shoot in combat as well.

Why then, if Warriors seem so inferior in every case (for example, if I take scything and rending I don't get a distance shot), are Warriors a better choice then Raveners?
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Old 27 Feb 2009, 17:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Regarding Fast Attack options...

One thing...

Anything with Wings is treated as Jump Infantry in all respects, and in 5th Jump Infantry can actually Deep Strike - so winged warriors don't need to be placed to start and "simulate" Deep Strike - they actually *can* Deep Strike as normal - so can Winged Hive Tyrants too btw.
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Old 27 Feb 2009, 17:50   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Regarding Fast Attack options...

[Original Text Deleted]

Totally was going to ask where you found that info.. so I dug into the Jump specific rules and there at the very last sentence was your point. Awesome. But still even with DS the #'s still seem to favor Raveners. Except that I'm looking at pricing and fielding a full FA Ravener brood would cost me... SOOOOOOO MUCH. 18x$17... even on E-bay its still $12 a figure.
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Old 27 Feb 2009, 18:11   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Regarding Fast Attack options...


If you want to measure a Winged Warrior vs a Ravener side by side in order to get the Statistics that matter and them roughly equivalent:

43 pts: Warrior: Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Synapse, Adrenal Glands (+I), Adrenal Glands (+WS), Winged,

40 pts: Ravener: Rending Claws, Scything Talons,

The Warrior will have one less attack, and a max assault range 6" less (but better base mobility), but it will gain Synapse and all the benefits that go along with it, so they won't be insta-killed by S8+ weapons and are Fearless, and give that benefit to things around them, and the ability to pick up other potentially useful biomorphs like Toxin Sacs & Flesh Hooks, or even bio-plasma. The Warrior is also not a beast, which means you can actually assault with them into the upper levels of a Ruin, something the Ravener can not do.

The Raveners can pick up a shooting weapon for the one turn you're probably not assaulting (but then you can't Run if you shoot it). You can be insta-killed, aren't fearless and will have to test for IB giving you a 1 in 12 chance you might fall back if you aren't in Synpase range. You can't ever assault into the upper levels of a Ruin, and if you have to assault into cover you're going at I1 since you can't get Flesh Hooks (which means you also can't go over vertically impassible terrain).

The other thing to consider is, you'll have to field at least a unit of 3 Warriors, (on top of the slightly higher cost) making them potentially a more expensive unit if you are worried about spending too many points, since you could opt for a unit of 1 or 2 Ravener models., Also, you could potentially field 3 Raveners in 3 separate units - which is great for dodging incoming fire on the way to combat, but bad for Kill Points and really bad for if you get forced to take No Retreat wounds if they're in a multi-unit CC. On the flip side, you can field up to 9 warriors in a unit, but only up to 6 Raveners if you want to have large units, so Warriors give you more flexibility there on the high end.

And yes, price-wise the models are more expensive for the Ravener, you'd pay $13 more at full price for 3 Raveners over 3 Warriors and then have to deal with a metal model over the plastic ones. But... I've seen nice conversions done of Warriors to Raveners if that's something you are interested in too - it can be done.
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Old 27 Feb 2009, 19:24   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Regarding Fast Attack options...

Totally depends on what your army is in need of. Stealers provide a good heavy-hitting combat unit, so I doubt you would need more of them. Some support based units would probably be better, some Gargoyles to fly around and distract the enemy or perhaps the Warriors.

I think in the end I'm more favorable to the Warriors, they're extra abilities and mobility make them slightly more attractive and if you toss on a deathspitter instead of the rending claws they can lend some important fire support (usually lacking in stealer lists). Just my personal opinion however, Raveners are good but I feel that they're far too easy to kill to justify the points you spend for them.
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Old 27 Feb 2009, 20:52   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Regarding Fast Attack options...

Thank you both for responding...

Nez, seriously you put in exactly what I was curious about and I can definitely see their limitations now AND why they are used in 1-2 item broods.

Also, I played my first Tyranid battle today ( a 500 pt skirmish ) and I took a goodly amount of No Retreat damage so I understand where that could be a REAL pain.

But also I can say now that my GS's rock. I went from terribly losing in T5 to a draw in T7.. not bad for a first time ever playing (minus a 1 hr lecture of gaunts vs tentacle thingies at GW to learn basic combat).
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