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5th Edition Tyranid Codex
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Old 23 Jan 2009, 22:27   #1 (permalink)
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Default 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

So I was just bored pondering what kind of stuff I'd want to see in a 5th edition Tyranid Codex and wondering if the rest of you had any ideas on what changes you'd like to see in a new Nid codex.

HQ:
I want more HQ options! Sure we have Tyrant, Broodlord and Warriors but what about giving us a shootier HQ? Or hell even make the Malanthrope a regular or special character.

I think the Hive Tyrant needs to be revamped. In 4th edition he was an awesome character killer able to own the Daemon Prince and many other HQs out there, that were no match for him. With everything gaining a new codex lately I've seen the power of the Tyrant greatly reduced. So i'm thinkin both the tyrant and broodlord need to have increased strength. Make them S6 and Initiative 6 base before biomorphs.
- Extended Synapse range make it 18" - 24" for Tyrants only.
- S6, T6 and I6 standard.
- BS4 standard
- More attacks! Or make Scything Talons upgrade give +2 attacks (it's 2 talons after all!)

Elites:

Warriors should get better CC abilities. SPECIALLY Fleet of Foot special rule warriors should really be given this ability. Matter of fact I think fleet of foot should be like move through cover, every Nid even MCs should have this to compensate for our 'loss' of speed due to every other army being able to RUN now. Or at the very least give us a 2D6 roll for RUN to make Nids a 'fast cc' army again. Warriors should be more flexible and perhaps given higher BS skill as well to give them a greater range of flexibility in shooting as well as improve the retardedness of scatter shots.
- Fleet of Foot or 2D6 RUN
- BS 3 standard
- S5 or 3/4 Attacks base (I mean come on they have 4 arms!!)
- 4+ save standard (this would help them enormously for such an important unit, and it would make Winged Warriors so much more desirable)
- More psychic powers! I understand the broodlord only having synapse but seriously Warriors seem like capable psychers, why not give them some options? Catalyst, The Horror and Psychic Scream would go great with Warriors.

Lictor should be more stealthy than it is now and able to support nearby units better as well as improving it's ability to bring down vehicles specially the fast ones.
- 4+ cover save standard, nowadays 4+ saves are so common and Lictors are master's of stealth.
- Always have a 2+ save when hiding in cover.
- More attacks! 4 arms again give him 4 attacks standard. 3 attacks doesn't help much makes him pretty weak offensively specially now that rending is nerfed.
- Lictor Tendrils should expand it's benefits 6" - 12" to nearby units, and it should be able to re-roll hits against Vehicles. Taking down anything moving more than 6" is near impossible unless u have a ridiculous amount of attacks.


Troops:
Gaunts I think need to be condensed to include all other variations like Hormagants and Gargoyles. A hormagant is essentially a Gaunt with talons biomorph and a gargoyle is just a termagant with wings.
- Scything Talons gives + 2 attacks. (Giving hormagants 3 attacks base can go a long way)
- 2D6 RUN
- Wings biomorph makes gaunts count as Fast Attack. HOWEVER If you include a Winged Hive Tyrant or Winged Warriors as HQ options, then your Winged Gaunts (gargoyles) count as Troop choices and may hold objectives. (This would be so good I can see many 'Winged Tyranid Armies' in the horizon) Also this gives us options on the guns on the gargoyles. Devourers will likely be the weapon of choice.
- 5+ standard save.
- S4 standard and unchangeable.

Genestealers
- S5 badly needed the nerf on rending is ridiculous.
- 4+ save standard and unchangeable. Or make EC cost much higher for a 3+ save.
- 3 Attacks standard! They have 4 arms for crying out loud.
- Scything Talons give +2 attacks. For a total of 4 attacks base with Talons.
- Remove Feeder Tendrils biomorph as an option (this will make the Lictor much more valuable and justifies an improved range of support on his tendrils) and having more attacks standard keeps the stealers competitive.
- If taking a Broodlord as your HQ choice, Genestealers may be also taken as Elites, FA and HS options. (Genestealer Cults would flourish)

Ripper Swarm
- With the addition of the Malanthrope as an HQ option. Rippers may be capable of holding objectives. (Wouldn't that be sweet? and adds a whole new dimension to Nids?)

Fast Attack
- Add in the FW spores for fast attack choices.

Raveners
- Scything Talons +2 attacks
- T5 and 4+ save
- Lower BS as raveners just don't strike me as being so great at shooting.
- S5 same as genestealers
- If taking a Trygon as Heavy Support allow Raveners to also count as Elite choices.

Heavy Support
Carnifex
- T7 base. Come on now S3 weapons should never be able to wound a fex, and Exoskeleton should make them just as tough as a Wraithlord!
- BS 3 standard.
- 2D6 Run or Fleet of Foot.
- 3/4 Attacks base!
- Immune to Instant Death. (Always in synapse)
- Scything Talons +2 Attacks
- Venom Cannon S = creature S, becomes AP3 and is able to penetrate all vehicles. (Giving us a S9 AP3 Venom Cannon, and with improvements to the Fex's Attack profile that would make it 3 or 4 shots)
- Barbed Strangler could be improved to S+2, making it S10. And just make it AP -, so that everything still gets a saving through. Even against vehicles now it can actually damage a Land Raider and only has a -1 on the vehicle damage chart so that it will need a 6 to destroy it.


Zoanthropes
- Improved Synapse range.
- More psychic powers.
- T5
- No limit on how many you can take as HS

Biovore
- Spore Mines NEVER count as units, so no more giving up victory points.
- Use large blasts instead of small blast.
- T5 and BS 3 or 4 to reduce scatter.

And that pretty much sums up my current ideas on what would improve the Nid codex. Any thoughts or ideas?
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 07:59   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

I know you're trying to help the codex but to me this just looks a little bit fanboyish.

Every unit is almost entirely improved with apparently little extra cost.

Personally I think that the stats are fine as they are, what needs to be changed is the points cost.

I also like the idea of merging units (combined gaunt genus squads so you can take scythed gargoyles for example). But I don't think you took the idea far enough. Ravenors and lictors are clearly warrior based units so why not add the biomorphs to warriors to allow you to make them, this also allows for greater diversity (feeder tendriled, stealthy, shooting ravennors for example). Unfortunately this could very easily complicate the codex with lots of biomorphs that move the FO slot.

As for improving the hive tyrant, I see him as essentialy being a clever fex so a high I (keep that the same) fex statline ought to be a good starting point IMO.

I like the intention but it seems like it has too many bad ideas and, IMO the one good idea has not been taken far enough.
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 11:35   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

hmmm. a bit fanboyish but I think giving genestealers S5 AND the ability to have a 3+ save makes them just like marines but with more attacks and better strength.
There are also loads of 4+ saves popping up and Gaunts T4? they are not as hard as orks, let them stay that way
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 13:37   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

Akaiyou do you know what the main rule of a tyranid army is? bodies over bullets!
F*ck biomorphes....you won't buy them anyway. And complaining that other armies are overpowered, and then suggesting that the nids should get overpowered (come on gaunts with T4? :O) is ridiculous. Warrior don't need 4 attacks. Nids are a powerfull CC army, we don't want shooty HQ's...get them in combat so that your broods can benefit from its synapse. Etc.

By making all the units better the way you mention it, I would have to remove half my army from my list, because the units are way too expensive

Nids aren't that bad now. 2D6 run on warrior...what the heck :O
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 17:55   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

Nice thoughts there Akaiyou. As a nid player, id like to see that stuff in the codex also But in the interest of keeping 40k fair and as balanced as possible, your suggestions may need a little adjusting

Well I agree that Hormagaunts need a little boost to make them a worthwhile close combat unit (currently too expensive as cannon fodder, too weak to take on marines, Ork nobz, necrons, etc).
S4 standard would make them a decent unit again.

Looking back at my ancient first incarnation of the nid codex (the one with genestealer cults in ) Hormagaunts did have S4 as standard.
(Then again this was at the same time when gargoyles moved 20" a turn and were all armed with strength 3 flamers - Brood of 20 anyone? )

What id like to see for hormagaunts is - Upped back to S4 base, I4, WS4, still 2 base attack, 6+ save, Fleet, Beasts. Around 10 points.
Weak on the defence, or against rapid fire bolters, but used effectively and kept out of rapid fire range - they would make a devastating first wave of littleuns.
And if you are stupid enough to buy them all the upgrades making them S5 Ws5 I5 costing like 25points each on a T3 beast with a 6+ save - you deserve whats coming to you

A plastic gargoyle kit to compliment jazzing out their codex profile with CC upgrades like STs/adrenals/Toxins etc. (Dont lump Gargoyles with the gaunts entry- a Flying Gaunt is a Gargoyle, not the other way around )

Quote:
Ravenors and lictors are clearly warrior based units so why not add the biomorphs to warriors to allow you to make them
As i mentioned- Really aint a fan of making units with a generic base like this; would give people the option to create just about anything they can think of and get rather confusing with so many options. We can make it work with the current unit entries we have without bunching things together under "Warrior Genus" or "Larger-Gribbley Genus".

Bringing back some of the old upgrades would be nice too, like Acid Blood, Voltage field, Spike Rifle, Strangleweb, Null Zone and Sharpened Claws. ;D

And please, can we do something about my Zoanthropes constantly missing that monolith with their warp blasts? :-\ Like a BS 4 upgrade?

Those are my thoughts
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 19:49   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

I like the idea of making Fleet a rule for all Tyranids, but some of you other ideas seem a bit overpowered. Nids aren't bad in the first place, so making them like that will take above and beyond the cheese level of the new marines.

What I'd like to see is more widely available biomorphs. Almost everything can get +S, so why not +T? +T gaunts and warriors don't seemed that overpowered if your paying a decent amount of points on the upgrades. I'd also like to see +W avaliable on all the multi wound models.

Another idea I've been playing around with in my head is a way for more variety in tyranid lists. Space Marines get lots of special rules from thier special characters, and I think it would be cool if Nids had something similar, but based around the stage of infestation. Such as, you can either build a Stage 1, Stage 2, or Stage 3 list.

Stage 1: Vangaurd
-Heavily limits MCs
-Limits on Gaunts, Warriors, and Thropes
- Genestealers get Scuttlers for free
-Lictors may Deeps Strike, Infiltrate or Outflank
-Feeder Tendrils Range 4"

Stage 2: Destruction
-Up to 8 MCs
-No Broodlord, Limited Stealers and Fast Attack

Stage 3: Absorption
-Max of 3 MCs
-No limit on Thropes
-Rippers in Synapse are scoring
-Spore mine bombardments every turn.
-Cheaper Gaunts

Those are just rough ideas. Stage 2 and 3 need to be fleshed out, but a system like that would be very cool IMHO.
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 22:02   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

One thing I'd really like to see in our next codex would be a new unit: Mycetic Spore Pod, that acted something like a Drop Pod from which a Tyranid brood could deepstrike in safely, an immobile unit, that might have some Devourers or other small ranged bio-morphs on it or something similar to the storm bolters of a Drop Pod.

I'd like a "Leaping" biomorph for the Tyrant - appropriately priced in terms points though, it would have to be pretty expensive, but a little less than "Wings" probably.

I also think "Warp Field" could use it's Invulnerable boosted, maybe 4+ or 5+ (considering the massive upgrade Space Marine Storm Shields just got, it shouldn't be that unreasonable to get *something* there) - but that is just me wishing for a pure power upgrade, and I realize I'm biased.
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 22:11   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS the over-ambitious
I know you're trying to help the codex but to me this just looks a little bit fanboyish.

Every unit is almost entirely improved with apparently little extra cost.

Personally I think that the stats are fine as they are, what needs to be changed is the points cost.

I also like the idea of merging units (combined gaunt genus squads so you can take scythed gargoyles for example). But I don't think you took the idea far enough. Ravenors and lictors are clearly warrior based units so why not add the biomorphs to warriors to allow you to make them, this also allows for greater diversity (feeder tendriled, stealthy, shooting ravennors for example). Unfortunately this could very easily complicate the codex with lots of biomorphs that move the FO slot.

As for improving the hive tyrant, I see him as essentialy being a clever fex so a high I (keep that the same) fex statline ought to be a good starting point IMO.

I like the intention but it seems like it has too many bad ideas and, IMO the one good idea has not been taken far enough.
I didn't include point costs because well I would have no idea what a fair point cost for these changes would be. And of course I would have to improve on the codex look at every new codex out there, every single thing has been improved, so why not? I don't particularly agree with the lictor/ravener/warrior merger because of the synapse creature rule that warriors have. That's why that didn't occur to me.

I also think Lictors would be a lot more closely related to a Broodlord/Genestealer than a warrior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by henbobbleb
hmmm. a bit fanboyish but I think giving genestealers S5 AND the ability to have a 3+ save makes them just like marines but with more attacks and better strength.
There are also loads of 4+ saves popping up and Gaunts T4? they are not as hard as orks, let them stay that way
Well genestealers should just have 4+ save period if they want to give it EC for a 3+ save they could just make it extra expensive but it wouldn't be a bad idea. And Gaunts should have S4 not T4, you can already get S4 with toxin sacs, I think that should be their default strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjoerd
Akaiyou do you know what the main rule of a tyranid army is? bodies over bullets!
F*ck biomorphes....you won't buy them anyway. And complaining that other armies are overpowered, and then suggesting that the nids should get overpowered (come on gaunts with T4? :O) is ridiculous. Warrior don't need 4 attacks. Nids are a powerfull CC army, we don't want shooty HQ's...get them in combat so that your broods can benefit from its synapse. Etc.

By making all the units better the way you mention it, I would have to remove half my army from my list, because the units are way too expensive

Nids aren't that bad now. 2D6 run on warrior...what the heck :O
You people really need to learn to read closely I never said T4 on gaunts i said S4 which they can already get with toxin sacs, I simply said that S4 should be standard. And yes the whole army should get 2D6 run because originally Nids were a 'fast cc' army now every single army is a 'fast cc' army since everyone and their grandmother can RUN.

Also sorry bro but the main rule is NOT bodies over bullets, the main rule is 'custom build your nid army however you want'. A lot of these changes aren't as crazy as you may think have you taken a look at the old codexes??

Did you know that Genestealers at one point where S6 or something?
And let's be realistic every codex has seen improvement so why not us? This isn't a debate bout lets make the nids as overpowered as possible, this is about 'what would YOU like to see in a future Nid Codex'

So instead of being negative why don't you guys actually take the thread for what it is (a HEALTHY discussion about what we would EACH like to see in the future) instead of just attacking my ideas and calling them fanboyish or whatever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thantos
Nice thoughts there Akaiyou. As a nid player, id like to see that stuff in the codex also But in the interest of keeping 40k fair and as balanced as possible, your suggestions may need a little adjusting

Well I agree that Hormagaunts need a little boost to make them a worthwhile close combat unit (currently too expensive as cannon fodder, too weak to take on marines, Ork nobz, necrons, etc).
S4 standard would make them a decent unit again.

Looking back at my ancient first incarnation of the nid codex (the one with genestealer cults in ) Hormagaunts did have S4 as standard.
(Then again this was at the same time when gargoyles moved 20" a turn and were all armed with strength 3 flamers - Brood of 20 anyone? )

What id like to see for hormagaunts is - Upped back to S4 base, I4, WS4, still 2 base attack, 6+ save, Fleet, Beasts. Around 10 points.
Weak on the defence, or against rapid fire bolters, but used effectively and kept out of rapid fire range - they would make a devastating first wave of littleuns.
And if you are stupid enough to buy them all the upgrades making them S5 Ws5 I5 costing like 25points each on a T3 beast with a 6+ save - you deserve whats coming to you

A plastic gargoyle kit to compliment jazzing out their codex profile with CC upgrades like STs/adrenals/Toxins etc. (Dont lump Gargoyles with the gaunts entry- a Flying Gaunt is a Gargoyle, not the other way around )

Quote:
Ravenors and lictors are clearly warrior based units so why not add the biomorphs to warriors to allow you to make them
As i mentioned- Really aint a fan of making units with a generic base like this; would give people the option to create just about anything they can think of and get rather confusing with so many options. We can make it work with the current unit entries we have without bunching things together under "Warrior Genus" or "Larger-Gribbley Genus".

Bringing back some of the old upgrades would be nice too, like Acid Blood, Voltage field, Spike Rifle, Strangleweb, Null Zone and Sharpened Claws. ;D

And please, can we do something about my Zoanthropes constantly missing that monolith with their warp blasts? :-\ Like a BS 4 upgrade?

Those are my thoughts
Great post. You are the first poster I see to actually take the thread for what it is supposed to be and I'm happy to see that.

I agree with your ideas on the hormagant, however I still push for more attacks on all Nids, we have more limbs it's only fair, and would certainly improve our cc capabilities.

I do think the gargoyle should be grouped with the gaunts and made plastic so that it can be easily mutable.

I really like your idea on bringin back the old biomorphs and stuff that would definetly be sweet.
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Old 27 Jan 2009, 21:52   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

i agree that nids need more attacks to compensate for the fact that unless your a rich megalomanic, youll never be able to field enough nids to represent the swarm.
the only changes id like to see, would be for more larger creatures (like the mobile brood nest creature described in warriors of ultramar) and for more models to be made of plastic (putting together a hive tyrant is still hell). codex wise, the biomorphs are too restricted. this is a species that can supposedly adapt its form to suit whatever environment/threat it faces, so you should be allowed to make virtually any biomorph on any creature (provided it can be modelled convincingly). for example: winged carnifex. give the nids some much needed air support without having to resort to forgeworld and imperial armour
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Old 28 Jan 2009, 01:20   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Tyranid Codex

Akaiyou, you went a bit overboard, tyranids are supposed to be a swarm army. I agree with some of your ideas like making gaunts a base from which to make gargoyles, hormogaunts etc. And I also agree with you and broken angel in that a few models could do with more attacks on their profile ( I too have looked at a Warrior and asked; "why 2 attacks?" I mean come on, an ork boy has 2 attacks and hes only got 2 arms!)

What Im hoping for Just to simply bring us in line with other armys;

Warriors; 3 attacks profile, optional toughnes 5, optional 3+ save, Maybe an extra wound as an upgrade (probably a bit overpowered to do that)

Gaunt; 2 attacks profile(they have 4 arms!), more upgrades

Hive Tyrant;4 attacks profile and give him the ability to take all the upgrades a carnifex can get (tusked, +1W, +1T, stuff like that)

Carnifex; 3 attacks profile
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