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More 5th edition notes
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Old 14 Jan 2009, 01:54   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Default More 5th edition notes

Be warned. I'm slowly selling off most of my Orks. I am converting over to Tyranids. As an obsessive compulsive writer be prepared to tell me to STOP or I'll go on forever.

So after collating all my notes on our Nid testing I want to try out two different 1000 point lists. WARNING – Skip to the lists if you just want the meat and potatoes.
Here are some of our observations:

1. Carefully select your biomorphs and do not overload a particular unit with them. An example that breaks this rule is the Elite Carnifex. In lower point games you might want to add a biomorph or two to make him tougher. Generally, with Nids, quantity trumps quality. I use bimorphs mainly on Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants but occasionally will add Flesh Hooks, Scuttling or Feeder Tendrils to genestealers.

2. Cover is your friend. Use your gaunts to block your genestealers. Use Fexes to block warriors and genestealers. Use a Tyrant Guard (well it isn’t cover but it provides a shieldwall) when playing a Walking Tyrant.

3. A Flyrant is probably the most powerful unit you can field. With Warp Field it is almost godlike. It becomes even better when a squad of Gargoyles escorts it. Gargoyles are a great counter charge squad to protect MCs.

4. Assault with Tyranids can be very tricky. Never join an MC or stealers with gaunts in a charge (you may lose combat and suffer extra wounds) Rather keep stealers with feeder tendrils within two inches of those attacking gaunts and give them ‘preferred enemy’ and assault the next turn to clean up.

5. Feeder tendrils are one of our best weapons. Scuttling stealers benefit from Lictors if they join in assaults. Gaunts, warriors and MCs benefit if we can get those stealers within two inches of them when they assault too.

6. Flesh Hooks count as frag grenades. Strange how many forget that. They are a Str4 attack vs. the back armour of vehicles. With enough attackers you might just do a little damage.

7. There are optimum sizes to squads. Warriors seem to work best at four to six strong. Gaunts are effective in larger groups of sixteen. Lictors seem to best paired. Genestealers work well at eight plus unless taken as a retinue for a Broodlord where it is feasible to use less.

8. Specialization is important. We need to assign each unit a specific role in our armies. They are generally either assault oriented, dakka oriented or AT hunters. Occasionally, a unit might have two purposes … a Boom Fex ( my favourite Elite carnifex) is used in a dual role. A Flyrant can be shooty or assault oriented and still take out vehicles as can a Carnifex.. Generally though, we add the weapons and biomorphs to a unit to specialize for its task.

9. Tyranid shooting is potent en masse. Even fleshborers on termagaunts can do damage and when backed by other squads the results can be effective. Tyranids have template weapons, weapons that pin, weapons that reroll, biomorphs that improve their ballistic skill, psychic scream to effect pinned units and more. A shooty Tyranid army is quite viable.

10. Outflanking is a two-edged sword. You always run the risk of entering late, on the wrong table edge or when your opponent has moved your target out of reach. While it can still be a viable tactic, overdoing the number of flanking units can be very dangerous.

11. Nidzilla lists and hybrid lists with at least three or four MCs are still capable of winning a lot of games. Swarm armies can work too but the lower the point level of the game the better your MCs perform.

12. Swarm lists require sound tactics. You need to organise your charges so the stronger cc units manage to get into combat without getting shot. Organize your troops into waves, the first tying up the enemy so your MCs and stealers, etc. can finish them off. Also synapse makes swarms more of a challenge. You need a lot of synapse so warriors, tyrants et all need midrange speed. I’m not comfortable with a swarm army. That said, they are fun to play. Without too many MCs we can load up on some of the less used units in the codex –gargoyles, biovores, lictors, and raveners come to mind.

13. 5th edition favours tyranid players edging towards balanced lists rather than complete nidzilla. The inclusion of warriors, gaunts, gargoyles, genestealers, lictors and raveners into a list makes target priority difficult. I like three or four MCs in my lists and generally expand my 1000 point lists with these extra units units. I know we tested Nidzilla but I prefer a little variety in my larger lists.

14. Gargoyles would be broken if they were not so expensive. We proxied gargoyles for a few games ( we actually used harpies ) and found that with a feeder tendril close by they were devastating. They are fragile though.

15. Deathspitters and barbed stranglers are great weapons in 5th edition. Blast weapons on warriors are just better then devourers. I prefer them on my Fexes as well (Boom Fex).


So after all this I am currently testing two lists. The first is a thematic list that is firing multiple templates a turn. Generally I would not put a barbed strangler on a walking tyrant. However, I want to fit as many large pie plates as possible into the list so I made the exception. The list can be devastating against certain foes and can be very difficult to play against others. It was designed to take on horde armies and Eldar but with some luck should still fare okay as an 'all comers' list.

Nid Pie

HQ - 345

Bomber Rant; 219
Barbed Strangler, TL Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs
w/ 2 Tyrant Guard

4 Warriors; 126
3 Deathspitters, Barbed Stangler, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs

Troops - 316

2x 15 Termagaunts w/ fleshborers - 90

8 Genestealers w/ Feeder Tendrils - 136

Heavy - 339

3x Boom Fex; 113
Barbed Strangler, Scything Talons

1000 points

The list has a little dakka and almost no primary AT. It has enough synapse and hopefully the fex, tyrant or stealers will take down vehicles. It is not very specialized. The termagaunts have their role as do the stealers. I wanted to put flesh hooks on my scuttling stealers but the feeder tendrils might be more useful if they are close to another assault. It really has no theme but hopefully will have a few answers for whatever pops up. I'll shelve my gargoyles for leaping warriors and shelve my Flyrant for bigger games.

HQ - 211

Tyrant; 211
TL Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs
w/ 2 Tyrant Guard, Lash Whips, Rending Claws

Elites - 175

5 Warriors; 175
Extended Carapace, +1 WS, Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Leaping

Troops - 500

2x 15 Termagaunts; 180
2x 8 Genestealers W/ Feeder Tendrils, Scuttlers; 320

Heavy - 114

Screamer Fex; 114
2 Scything Talons, +1 WS, Bio-Plasma, Flesh Hooks

Total 1000
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Old 14 Jan 2009, 19:41   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: More 5th edition notes

I agree with almost everything but I have a huge disagreement with the following:
Quote:
15. Deathspitters and barbed stranglers are great weapons in 5th edition. Blast weapons on warriors are just better then devourers. I prefer them on my Fexes as well (Boom Fex).
I have 16 warriors with deathspitters, 5 with stranglers and 9 with twin-linked devourers.

If I had known how good twin-linked devourers were, I would've just had those instead of anything else. Twin-Linked Devourers are NASTY! NASTY! NASTY!

Problem is the 18" range but technically you have a 24" range weapon with moving. So by turn 2 you should be able to shoot something.

And yes I like deathspitters, they are certainly the most versatile weapon a warrior can have, however scatter is rather unreliable even with BS3. From your other thread I am aware that most of your play-testing was done against Orks correct?

I've been playing against all types of opponents and let me tell you...deathspitters/barbed stranglers suck majorly against anything with light infantry and well armoured vehicles. It is so easy to scatter and not hit anything, hell I lost a game against Orks (I even posted a battle report on it) because my friggin blast weapons refused to hit my intended targets, they simply scattered Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, everywhere but on the Orks for most of the game. Here's a link:
Nids vs Orks
- Warriors didn't do a thing! I shouldn't have relied on them to soften the Orks up like I thought they would before charging with stealers and everything else.

Nids vs Chaos Marines

- The warriors didn't do jack this game, genestealers saved the day.


On the other hand twin-linked devourers plus enhanced senses give you 4 S3 shots with re-rolls to hit AND wound! 4 shots for every warrior! Put 5 warriors in there and you have yourself 20 S3 shots that re-roll everything.

Here is the killing power:
Devourer vs Deathspitter

For the calculator I set it as 2 groups of 6 warriors each, one armed with twin-linked devourers and the other with deathspitter/talon. The 6 group of devourers get 24 shots, for the deathspitter because of how scatter works I gave them '12' attacks as an 'average' roll considering the scatter probability that 2 out of 6 will hit on a 'standard' unit which would be about 8 models hit and added another 4 to cover randomness of scattering. The 'standard' unit size in 40k is 10 models usually in 2 ranks ====== like that, so thats why I average out 4 hits per blast as average.

Anyway as u can see the devourer is more effective in almost every case against infantry. The deathspitter is good because it has better range and it's more versatile in what you can target with it. However devourers own any infantry T4 and below if you add toxin sacs then they also do well against T5.


===============================

As for your posted army lists

List 1
- Take off the devourers on the tyrant. If you really wanna go for stranglers then you wont be needing to be within 18" of any enemy. Just keep your distance and shoot make them come to you and then assault them.


List 2
Very vulnerable list imo. Gargoyles are great if they can actually get in there but they are sooo fragile that they usually dont. I have 20 gargoyles that I keep shelved because they hardly ever last long enough, opponents see their speed and get rid of them right away and they cost way too much so it's usually a major loss.

You should have both genestealer units outlflank for added pressure. Your tyrant has way too many upgrades for a 1k game, you build a character killer and i doubt you'll encounter that many characters at 1k. So make him cheaper make the genestealers outflank and then post a triple threat of speed with the flying gargoyles/tyrant the outflanking stealers and everything else that is running up behind them.
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Old 15 Jan 2009, 00:56   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: More 5th edition notes

Revised list two as per your comments ...
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