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Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 05:07   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

If a Tyrant model is given Toxic Miasma does the -1WS agaisnt an opponent also include attacks against any accompanying Tyrant Guard that the Tyrant model has attached to it?

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Old 12 Jan 2009, 07:02   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

No.

Miasma only works for the model with the biomorph, other models in the unit do not benefit from it like in the case of Feeder Tendrils.

However i've been doing some more research and i'm finding that miasma is now a big waste of points like someone brought up to me a long time ago on these forums.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 07:14   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

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Originally Posted by Akaiyou
No.

Miasma only works for the model with the biomorph, other models in the unit do not benefit from it like in the case of Feeder Tendrils.

However i've been doing some more research and i'm finding that miasma is now a big waste of points like someone brought up to me a long time ago on these forums.
Why do you say it is a waste of points? (I just looked at it for the first time the other day, so I'm curious.)
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 07:35   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

I've been using the killing power calculator to check effectiveness now that it's been updated and also in my games it's proven itself not that useful. Unless you want to specifically make a character killer Tyrant miasma will be a waste since it's technically giving you WS 7, and really how many models in 40k have WS higher than 6?

You are better off either leaving the tyrant as standard with WS 5 or only taking Adrenal Glands which is cheaper and makes you WS 6 which is more than you'll need against 90% of the models in 40k.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 07:46   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

Ah. Waste of points on a tyrant. I understand that. I was thinking you meant a waste of points in general. Meanwhile, I was looking at the use on a carnifex and wondering why it was a waste.

Thank you for the quick and clear response.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 10:23   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

I actually reckon that Toxic Miasma is more worthwhile than Adrenal Glands (+1 WS). The deduction of an enemy's WS is worth more than adding one to your own.

[table]
[tr][td]Weapon Skill[/td][td]Adversely affected by TM (Nid offence)[/td][td]Adversely affected by TM (Nid defence)[/td][td]Adversely affected by AG (Nid offence)[/td][td]Adversely affected by AG (Nid defence)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 (Carnifex)[/td][td]
3, 7
[/td][td]
2, 4
[/td][td]
3, 7
[/td][td]
4
[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 (Fex w/Adrenal Gland)[/td][td]
4, 9
[/td][td]
2, 5
[/td][td]
N/A
[/td][td]
N/A
[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 (Tyrant)[/td][td]
5
[/td][td]
3, 6
[/td][td]
5
[/td][td]
6
[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 (Tyrant w/Adrenal Gland)[/td][td]
6
[/td][td]
3, 7
[/td][td]
N/A
[/td][td]
N/A
[/td][/tr]
[/table]

The numbers listed are those adversely (i.e. negatively) affected by Toxic Miasma; in the first column, when the Tyranid in question attacks, these numbers are the Weapon Skills that are affected, and in the second column, these are the Weapon Skills affected when the Tyranid in question is attacked. The third and fourth columns compare the effects of taking Adrenal Glands INSTEAD of Toxic Miasma.

To be fair, the addition of Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant with Adrenal Glands is minimal; whilst it does make hitting WS 6 easier, you are right in that there is relatively little WS 7 in the game to hit you, making the addition of Toxic Miasma relatively worthless in that situation.

However, as can be seen in the table, Toxic Miasma affects a wider range of Weapon Skills than Adrenal Glands does, for both Carnifex and Tyrant, making it more useful against certain armies.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 11:48   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

The main problem comes from the newest Tyranid FAQ:

"Q: When a Hive Tyrant with Toxic Miasma has Tyrant Guards, are all attacks made against the unit at -1WS?

A: Only if all Tyrant Guards in the unit have been killed, or if the Hive Tyrant is the only model engaged. Otherwise, Toxic Miasma has no effect on attacks directed at the Hive Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit."



Which gives a much different interpretation of the rule from the Codex than I would have suspected.

"Toxic Miasma: ... Any creature being attacked by, or directing its attacks towards, a Tyranid with toxic miasma reduces its WS by 1."


Due to this specific wording in the Codex rule, the way I was playing it before was this: If a model in a unit directed its attacks against a model with Toxic Miasma, it lost -1WS on the attack, though the rest of the unit would not from just attacking if those models were directing their attacks against another unit or model without Toxic Miasma. However, if a model with Toxic Miasma attacked another unit, because wounds could spill over to the entire unit and any model in it, then that whole unit lost -1WS.

In simple 1 unit on 1 unit combat it was easy. In large multi-unit combats, it could be a little more difficult to resolve, as attacks can be split out at different units, but I figured it was the fairest interpretation of the rules I could think of. But the latest FAQ seems to not be in favor of how I played it (also, with the exception of Zoanthropes, I haven't really used Toxic Miasma much recently, so it hasn't been an issue.)

It does make me wonder, if you have a creature with Toxic Miasma mixed into a multiple combat, does it's Miasma work, or does it just get negated like a Hive Tyrants would in a group with Tyrant Guard? Does the ruling on the Tyrant & Guard stem from the fact that you can't target the Tyrant separately due to Shield Wall, or is it just due to the fact that the whole unit (or whole combat) would need to be clouded and choked in Miasma for it to work, meaning every model in the combat would have to have it?

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Old 12 Jan 2009, 12:56   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

"Toxic Miasma: ... Any creature being attacked by, or directing its attacks towards, a Tyranid with toxic miasma reduces its WS by 1."

it is clear enough, isn't it?
If your creature with TM gets attacked (directly), the attacker has a lowered WS. Any attacks made by your creature with TM is against models with WS-1
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 14:34   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

Quote:
To be fair, the addition of Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant with Adrenal Glands is minimal; whilst it does make hitting WS 6 easier, you are right in that there is relatively little WS 7 in the game to hit you, making the addition of Toxic Miasma relatively worthless in that situation.
It is useful against special characters, deamon princes, et all. The extra little boost ensures a few extra hits and with implant attack you have a character killer. However I would only take it on a Tyrant in conjunction with adrenal glands and implant attack. Of course you are spending a lot of points on a cc monster then boosting the cost to well over 200 points once you add warp field and wings ( I'll assume we are not putting it on a Walkrant. Why would you not build a shooty Walkrant w/guard? I don't see a cc Walkrant nearly as effective.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 18:13   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Toxic Miasma on a Tyrant affect Attacks Against Tyrant Guard?

Wait a minute, a Tyrant with Guard does NOT lose his miasma benefit. He simply does not confer it onto the Guard, but it still works for him alone.

The FAQ question is similar to what was asked in this thread, about if the guard also benefit because they are in the unit to which the answer is no, only the tyrant gets it not the unit.

So just to be clear adding guards does not negate miasma benefits for the Tyrant.

And yes Miasma is good for a fex but not for the Tyrant unless you want a character killer.
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