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Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 15:54   #1 (permalink)
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Default Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

I know that land raiders are definetly tough, but I think we should all focus more on figuring out the weaknesses rather than looking at the strengths. Both the crusader and redeemer have 3 major flaws that can almost guarantee you a victory against them as a Nid player.

1. Their secondary weapons are short/mid ranged.
2. Their main weapon is the assault cannon.
3. They can't deal with monstrous creatures.

Let's take 'em one at a time.

1. Both the Crusader and Redeemer raiders are assault vehicles in all the sense of the word. Specially the Redeemer who's secondary weapons require it to be within flame template reach, this is a major weakness. Venom Cannon it from a distance and hope for a 6 so that you can Immobilise the sucker. How good is an immobilised redeemer? Ask any space marine player that has had it happened. Even an armament destroyed result is good if you get rid of the Assault Cannon your opponent will be rendered helpless against a Carnifex.

2. The assault cannon is definetly a nice weapon. However it is very poor against Tyranids. You get 4 shots, 3 hit and you have a 1 in 12 chance to rend. That's not very good odds for your assault cannon toting land raider. It is a very poor weapon against gaunts and the like. It's poor against Warriors because the AP 4 makes rending redundant and if you just compare it to everything a tyranid army list can offer you'll quickly find that the assault cannon is not a good weapon vs nids. In a 1 on 1 fight any monstrous creature in our arsenal is almost guaranteed victory as it takes a massive amount of assault cannon shots to down 1 T6 Sv3+ MC. Also the fact that cover is so abundant nowadays means that even our infantry can easily get saving throws against the assault cannon.

3. Carnifexes! say it together with me guys. CARNIFEX is the weapon of choice here. Even an elite fex can take out whatever Land Raider your opponent can muster. Aim your 113pt Elite fex in the right direction and forget about it. Crusaders and Redeemers can simply NOT handle carnifexes. Their guns are not suited to deal with a fex. Even an elite fex with a 3+ save will tear your opponent's land raider up, because of their short range they need to get close to cause damage which means they need to bring their land raider close to your carnifex that can easily tear their pretty tank up in one blow.

The redeemer's flamers suck against a 4 wound carnifex. And if he's close enough to flame you that means you should be close enough to assault him. And at that range he'll need at least 3 turns to kill an Elite fex whilst your elite fex needs only 1 turn to send the Redeemer to it's grave.

The Crusader has a Klkn load of bolters that can only tickle your fex. So he'll need to keep his distance if he wants to survive.

Shooting your venom cannon from your fex at either of these vehicles and on a 5 or a 6 on the damage chart you've got yourself an easy kill. Getting rid of the assault cannon makes them much less of a threat to everything and immobilising them makes them Carnifex food 100% of the time as they have no way of stopping a rushing fex.

So what do we need? To sum it up, and I challenge everyone to actually TRY it before you say 'no that wont work'.

1. Use MIXED fexes with the following:
A) Venom Cannon w/Talons, Enhanced Senses. As your heavy support choice when playing against marines.

B) Use 2x Talons, Adrenal Glands W + Toxic Miasma for your elite carnifexes and run them up right infront of your opponent's land raider.

2. Don't forget the Venom Cannon. The venom cannon is great anti tank even if it can not 'destroy', it can still immobilise and armament destroy and as I said before against these 2 suckers that's ALL you need to do.

3. Deployment! Some times it is NOT better to go first. So deploy second if you win the roll off so that you can see exactly where the land raiders will be. Then deploy your carnifexes right infront of them and put your infantry on the other side of your deployment edge or just try to get enough room between them and the land raiders so that it'll be hard for them to get within 24" This is a major advantage to you! If your opponent wants to mow down your troops he has to face down an angry Fex on the way that is guaranteed to destroy him, make him aware of this. Psychology is a great weapon.

4. You can get a bunch of carnifexes rather cheap point wise in a 1500 point game for about 750 points you an get 3 elite fexes and 3 heavy support fexes with the set ups i mentioned. There is no land raider dependent space marine army in the world that can beat that if you play using your common sense. And you still have half of your points to put into other stuff to give you a very solid army. You don't ever need that many fexes but I wanted to make those that for some reason didn't know this aware that tossing 6 carnifes means they will never need to worry bout a land raider again (until the higher point value games)

I hope this helps everyone out there that is having a hard time with Land Raiders. I myself play space marines and chaos space marines. Even though very far from being a 'vet' with either of those armies I like to think I have a pretty solid idea of what the Land Raider can and cannot do for me. So I just want to say that I'm not just pulling theories from the sky, this is simply my style of play and what I do to deal with stuff and if it works for me I'm sure it can work for everyone else as well.
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Old 10 Jan 2009, 17:59   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

but it is the regular raider that will give you a run for your money.
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Old 10 Jan 2009, 19:28   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoQuerak
but it is the regular raider that will give you a run for your money.
How? I have a regular land raider and IMO it's not so great. 2 lascannon shot (twin-linked as it may be) and 1 heavy bolter isn't dat big a threat to nids. A 5 wound carnifex will peel the skin of a raider before it gets a chance to kill it.

And the regular raider is horrible against infantry.
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 00:26   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

That ebing said about the landraider... I have found it quite often will have something inside for fun...Yes you have made your points back destroying the landraider, But what about that terminator assault squad with storm shields and thunderhamers? That could squish your carnifex quite easily me thinks....

And whilst your carnifex is attacking the landraider, which you yourself said isn't good against nids, it could be going after juicier targets, like sternguard veterans or assault marines....
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 08:19   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Why So Serious?
That ebing said about the landraider... I have found it quite often will have something inside for fun...Yes you have made your points back destroying the landraider, But what about that terminator assault squad with storm shields and thunderhamers? That could squish your carnifex quite easily me thinks....

And whilst your carnifex is attacking the landraider, which you yourself said isn't good against nids, it could be going after juicier targets, like sternguard veterans or assault marines....
imo carnifex = heavy targets 1st.
i let my other units handle normal/elite units most of the time.
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 17:20   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

I think you missing out on some strategies here.

Tyranids have the worst long ranged ant-tank in 40k. Your Venom Cannons can stun a vehicle and immobilize it if you are lucky and Barbed Stranglers do scatter and are generally an ineffective source of AT. So lets start by saying that you need to either rend or use MCs against tanks.

Your standard Sniperfex will only stun and immobilize a tank. But that is not a bad strategy. As you said first immobilize a tank and then kill it. Is the Fex are only choice as the MC killer though? I think not. More later.

You fit a Hive Tyrant with a VC and Devourer as well but again against most tanks he is rather ineffective. You can add warp blast but it really is unreliable and it does not have the best range. So is the a Hive Tyrant a poor tank killer. Again, I think not. More later.

What about Zoanthropes? Three with warp blast cost around 200 points. They hit on 4+. So admittedly with a good roll you might just immobilize a nasty tank and with great rolls you could hurt a Monolith or Land Raider. However, we need to be realistic and consider we will get only average rolls. But if you are relying on them you might be disappointed. It is just too random and inconsistent for my taste. For me these are unreliable. The chance of Warp Blast actually taking down a Raider ( maybe 6%) plus the range of 18" makes it less then ideal.

Now that leaves us melee right. But we do not have to head into a melee until some damage has been done, right? I do like Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons to stun and immobilize vehicles. Why? Because it gives our Fexes and Tyrants the opportunities to get up close and finish those vehicles off on turn two or three. MCs will tale down Land Raiders, Vindicators and Predators without much difficulty.

So what is the best vehicle killer? Flying Hive Tyrants with +1 Str will almost auto-kill any vehicle in the game. They do not need to wait for a vehicle to be stunned. That is why the Tyrant has such a big bulls eye painted on it. Carnifexes are also good but a little slower so you almost need to stun and immobilize the vehicles and then finish them off in melee a turn later. Flying tyrants with toxin sacs do well as tank chasers due to their fast move and 6+2d6 for armour penetration.

Lictors are tank killers as well. They have Rending. Let it jump out of cover and with a little luck rolling the dioe it will take out a tank. Just do not expect it to survive out in the open after it has done its job. It can hurt a Riader with a little luck but it would not be my primary choice against LRs. Two or three Lictors with Str6 and rending should be able to take out a Raider.

Stealers have rending. Now there are those that like to use scuttling stealers to hit the back armour of tanks and this can also work but you need to hope that the tank has not moved, it has back armour no greater then 10 and that you roll at least average on the damage tables. I prefer to keep the stealers hidden behind those Fexes and then let them loose once you have gotten an immobilized result on a tank. Unfortunately their strength makes them useless against Raiders so we have to rule them out.

I think your observations on the whole are quite good but there are more options then just Fexes to take out vehicles. Certainly with the armour of a Raider, Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes make the most sense though. The 2d6 is very nice.
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 20:41   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

I actually almost completely agree with your post except for the:

Quote:
Tyranids have the worst long ranged ant-tank in 40k. Your Venom Cannons can stun a vehicle and immobilize it if you are lucky and Barbed Stranglers do scatter and are generally an ineffective source of AT. So lets start by saying that you need to either rend or use MCs against tanks.
I think Tyranid shooting is great ive used it often and usually pays off greatly.

I'm glad to finally see someone else that realizes how crappy the BS is against vehicles with that scatter nonsense and that warp blast is unreliable as hell. Those are my sentiments exactly. The only serious anti-tank shooting i've ever found reliable came from my MCs I can always count on them to do 'something'.

I want to also point out to you that I am completely aware of all the options you mentioned however the focus of this thread was taking down land raiders and what would be 'ideal' for taking them down, in which case the Carnifex is hands down the ideal weapon because it's nearly invulnerable to most of a Raider's weapons while having the highest potential for destroying it.

Tyrant - no matter what kind of tyrant you build you will need to roll a 9 or higher on 2D6 to destroy a Raider. Which means you have less than 50% chance of doing this. Statistically a raider is probably moving and shooting so you will be hitting it on 4+, with a tyrant having max of 6 attacks on the charge. 3 Hits and then less than 50% chance to penetrate gives you 1 penetrating hit. After which you must roll on the damage table and only have 1/3 chance to actually destroy the raider.

Lictor - again a poor choice against a Land Raider because Lictors will only get 4 attacks on the charge, 3 hits(feeder tendrils helps out a LOT) and you have to pray for a 6 out of 3 hits. That's a 1/12 chance of rolling a 6. Of course once you do get a 6 then you'll need to roll a 5+ to actually penetrate the raider, so you have 1/3 chance to penetrate and then 1/3 chance to destroy. Definetly not ideal.

Genestealers (w/Toxin Sacs, Feeder Tendrils) - Same deal as with the lictors except that you can only glance a Raider.

All in all it all comes down to the Fex to get the job done. A standard fex penetrates on a 2d6 roll of 6. Which is more than 50% of the time, and the more attacks it has the more penetrating hits you'll roll towards improving the 1/3 chance to destroy on the damage table. So slap a venom cannon and a set of talons and you'll be able to stun/immobilise said raider which would in turn make you hit automatically and 4 attacks on the charge 3 penetrating hits = Raider death.
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 21:02   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

There are only minor details we disagree on. Overall, as I said, I thought your assessment was quite good and I enjoyed the read.

A souped up Flyrant with dual STs will get 6 attacks and likely hit on 3 of them. I've had no problems either immobilizing or destroying even a Land Raider. I like tryrants because they get to tanks faster and hopefully it has been immobilized by your Fexes first. I agree that we do need the fexes in our lists as well . There really is not much that we disagree on here. I think Carnifexes will do a very nice job against tanks. I think Flyrants are very good too and I've always felt that sped kills.

One Lictor is iffy. I tend to plat Lictors in groups of two and many use groups of three. That will increase your odds considerably. Unfortuantely I like Warriors too but often I can stick my Warriors in the 2nd HQ spot.

Nid shooting is good but not against heavily armoured tanks. I know Nids can take down everything else. I'm only talking about their shooting as dedicated AT at a long range ie., 36" and more.
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 21:46   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanaBebe
There are only minor details we disagree on. Overall, as I said, I thought your assessment was quite good and I enjoyed the read.

A souped up Flyrant with dual STs will get 6 attacks and likely hit on 3 of them. I've had no problems either immobilizing or destroying even a Land Raider. I like tryrants because they get to tanks faster and hopefully it has been immobilized by your Fexes first. I agree that we do need the fexes in our lists as well . There really is not much that we disagree on here. I think Carnifexes will do a very nice job against tanks. I think Flyrants are very good too and I've always felt that sped kills.

One Lictor is iffy. I tend to plat Lictors in groups of two and many use groups of three. That will increase your odds considerably. Unfortuantely I like Warriors too but often I can stick my Warriors in the 2nd HQ spot.

Nid shooting is good but not against heavily armoured tanks. I know Nids can take down everything else. I'm only talking about their shooting as dedicated AT at a long range ie., 36" and more.
agreed.
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Old 15 Jan 2009, 09:37   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tyranid Tactics - Crushing The Mighty 5th Ed Land Raiders.

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Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoQuerak
but it is the regular raider that will give you a run for your money.
How? I have a regular land raider and IMO it's not so great. 2 lascannon shot (twin-linked as it may be) and 1 heavy bolter isn't dat big a threat to nids. A 5 wound carnifex will peel the skin of a raider before it gets a chance to kill it.

And the regular raider is horrible against infantry.
This has been discussed to death in my region of play and the end result is that the regular land raider is overall better than the crusader because in its ability to do many things well.

I am perfectly happy to play against someone with a crusader than a regular land raider.

The land Raider are Carny and tyrant killers. And that is how I use them with great success against the Nids.


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