Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Implant Attack in 5th
Reply
Old 18 Nov 2008, 18:39   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego, California, North America, Earth
Posts: 1,069
Send a message via AIM to Unusualsuspect Send a message via MSN to Unusualsuspect
Default Implant Attack in 5th

Hi. I'm not a Tyranid player myself (maybe in a few years...), but I do have a question regarding Implant Attack and it's interaction with the rules for removing casualties.

So, we know from Remove Casualties (pg 24) that for ever model that fails its save, the unit suffers 1 wound. Most also agree that saves are rolled together for identical models and that multiple unsaved wounds (even if both allocated to the same model) will be transfered over to identical models in the unit.

Implant Attack changes the number of wounds caused by an unsaved wound to 2 instead of 1. Given the way 5th edition casualty removal works (extra wounds, even on the same model, will be carried over to other identical models), would that unit of 5 identical tactical marines remove 1 casualty or 2 casualties from a single unsaved wound caused by a model with Implant Attack?

I'm looking for a few things, basically:

1. Is this RAW? Is RAW even clear on this issue? I think the rules lean somewhat in favor of the 2 casualty interpretation, but I've heard disagreement about it from a new tyranid player.
2. Is this RAI? The intention of Implant Attack seems to be towards killing multi-wound models, not slaughtering multiple models with 1 wound.
3. Is this cheesy? Does it stink of the sort of tactics and rules lawyering that you'd just never want to deal with? I'm reminded of the "2 squads granting each other cover" tactic that was RAW (the basic rules allowed it, no special rules denied it) but neither RAI nor anything but a cheezy way to get something from nothing.

Your thoughts? (preferrably without the "Out, ya gorram brownshirt rules-lawyerin' scumbag!")
__________________
I you private dancer.
Unusualsuspect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18 Nov 2008, 19:15   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 4,360
Send a message via AIM to Gada Mazaha Send a message via MSN to Gada Mazaha
Default Re: Implant Attack in 5th

Implant Attack is intended to cause an additional wound only to the model that received the initial unsaved wound. I don't care if the rules changed a bit on would allocation, that is how Implant Attack is intended and that is how it should stay. Grandfathered in, if you will.
Gada Mazaha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18 Nov 2008, 19:31   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego, California, North America, Earth
Posts: 1,069
Send a message via AIM to Unusualsuspect Send a message via MSN to Unusualsuspect
Default Re: Implant Attack in 5th

The answer I was expecting, of course.

Does that mean my RAW interpretation is correct, or it too muddy to clearly determine?
__________________
I you private dancer.
Unusualsuspect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 Nov 2008, 04:37   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 4,360
Send a message via AIM to Gada Mazaha Send a message via MSN to Gada Mazaha
Default Re: Implant Attack in 5th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unusualsuspect
The answer I was expecting, of course.

Does that mean my RAW interpretation is correct, or it too muddy to clearly determine?
I think it's too muddy. It's implied that the model that took the wound is the only model that can receive the additional wound. I believe is was stated like that in the 3rd edition codex.
Gada Mazaha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 Nov 2008, 10:54   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Akaiyou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,023
Send a message via AIM to Akaiyou Send a message via MSN to Akaiyou Send a message via Yahoo to Akaiyou
Default Re: Implant Attack in 5th

Mmmm i'm not looking at my codex right now but I'm positive that I know the rules for implant attack well so here's my 2 cents and hope it helps you.

Codex - a model that suffers an unsaved wound from a model with implant attacks counts as taking 2 wounds.

Rulebook - wounds are allocated per model, before saving throws are made.

So pretty much this only works for models with more than one wound because it only affects THE model in question and this is done AFTER wound allocation.

Meaning wounds are allocated BEFORE implant attack goes into effect. After you make you make your saving throws any model with more than one wound UNSAVED will count as having taken 2. So that these extra wounds do NOT get spread around to other similar models and will only affect models with multiple wounds to lose.
__________________
Back to 40k.
Akaiyou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 Nov 2008, 13:02   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,045
Default Re: Implant Attack in 5th

The Implant Attack biomorph states: "A model that does not pass a saving throw when wounded by a creature with implant attack suffers two wounds instead of one..."

Given that normal wounds need to be allocated to models or batches of identical models before the saves are made, and these extra wounds only apply after that stage, I would say it's still just applying to the one model in question, and not the group of identical models. It's not explicitly clear however in RAW, but I'm pretty sure the intent is that it only applies to the model that was actually wounded, and does not spill over to any other. And of course for combat resolution and determining the assault results, these extra wounds only count if the model had the extra wound to lose, you can't count them if they are in excess of the models wound characteristic.
Nezalhualixtlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 Nov 2008, 20:41   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Akaiyou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,023
Send a message via AIM to Akaiyou Send a message via MSN to Akaiyou Send a message via Yahoo to Akaiyou
Default Re: Implant Attack in 5th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezalhualixtlan
The Implant Attack biomorph states: "A model that does not pass a saving throw when wounded by a creature with implant attack suffers two wounds instead of one..."

Given that normal wounds need to be allocated to models or batches of identical models before the saves are made, and these extra wounds only apply after that stage, I would say it's still just applying to the one model in question, and not the group of identical models. It's not explicitly clear however in RAW, but I'm pretty sure the intent is that it only applies to the model that was actually wounded, and does not spill over to any other. And of course for combat resolution and determining the assault results, these extra wounds only count if the model had the extra wound to lose, you can't count them if they are in excess of the models wound characteristic.
There u go, what he said.

Except for the unclear in the raw thing. I feel that it's pretty clear how it works after saving throws and thus can't be allocated as extra wounds to other models.

This discussion is similar to the scarab discussion with vulnerable to blasts and instant death coming into effect AFTER saving throws not b4.
__________________
Back to 40k.
Akaiyou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 Dec 2008, 00:35   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 38
Default Re: Implant Attack in 5th

Implant attack is a great upgrade for something like a hive tyrant, it means he can kill something like a Battlesuit, Meganob or Khorne.. um.. Khorne thinghy riding a big dog/rhino thingy with one hit, a fantastic uprgade.
greenpotato is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A question about implant attack. Ekiel Tyranids 5 26 Jul 2009 16:09
Implant attack biomorph Shae2994 Tyranids 2 23 May 2009 10:07
Question about Implant Attack... Nezalhualixtlan Tyranids 4 09 Apr 2008 16:35
no implant for warriors messyart Tyranids 5 10 May 2006 22:34
Implant Attack HiveMined Tyranids 11 12 Feb 2006 21:40