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Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank
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Old 28 Oct 2008, 19:16   #1 (permalink)
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Default Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Also try making your fexes with venom cannon and scything talons. this set up fits anti-tank and anti infantry rolls very well.
As an aside, I've seen you mention using a VC for tank hunting on multiple occasions now. Do you really find that much success with a weapon that can only ever inflict glancing hits on a vehicle?
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Old 28 Oct 2008, 20:26   #2 (permalink)
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Default Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyCool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Also try making your fexes with venom cannon and scything talons. this set up fits anti-tank and anti infantry rolls very well.
As an aside, I've seen you mention using a VC for tank hunting on multiple occasions now. Do you really find that much success with a weapon that can only ever inflict glancing hits on a vehicle?
Have you only read the rule or actually tried the weapon in-game? That's the big difference mainly between people who say 'omg the VC is horrible it can ONLY glance' and those that say 'glancing is good enough, VC is a great weapon!'

I do find a LOT of success with the venom cannon. Every single time I can immobilize/stun/armament destroy a vehicle i'm making my points back. Vehicles can be very hard to hit when they are constantly moving and shooting at you. And the venom cannon is the best weapon we have to stop vehicles from making short work of our other units at a distance.

Why are some of you guys so infatuated with destroying a vehicle?? That's what I don't understand. So what if it can't destroy standard vehicles, would u really rather shoot a barbed strangler at a vehicle? Good luck with that one. You'll hardly ever get it done.

Here's an example of why a venom cannon is ESSENTIAL for anti-tank.
Say you are facing off against Chaos Space Marines/Chaos Daemons. They have 3 defilers/3 soul grinders in their back lines.

They will be dropping a battle cannon on your gaunts EVERY TURN hitting you with a S8 AP3 blast.

And you have your crappy combat fexes running forward. Moving an average of about 9" a turn (RUN move included) from your deployment zone.

Let's look at deployment types:

Pitched Battle you can deploy your CC fex at 12"

Defiler can comfortably sit all the way in the back at the board's edge. So if the Defiler is 6" in width, your carnifex will be just about 30" away from the defiler. With an average move of 9" it'll take you 3 turns to get to the other side. In 3 turns you'll have been hit with 9 battle cannon blasts. OUCH!

Spearhead again defilers can sit all the way at the back, so you'll be even further away due to the extra length of spearhead. Possibly eating 12 battle cannon blasts before you get to those defilers.

Dawn of War is just as bad because your carnifex will start the game all the way at the back. So you'll definetly eat up 9 or 12 battle cannon shots before your fex gets there.

Oh and did i mention defilers/soul grinders can MOVE and SHOOT ? As well as being able to kill a wounded fex in CC? Having CC fexes against units like these guys is just a losing battle because they have an overwhelming advantage in mobility and range.

Meanwhile a Sniperfex or better yet a mixed fex with Talons and Venom Cannon can make up for the short cummings of a cc fex. The mixed fex can have all the combat power of a CC fex mins 1 attack (is one attack really that big a loss?) and still be able to hurt enemy tanks from a distance.

Every shaken or stunned result means that your other units will not take a high strength blast to the face. If you get armament destroy throw up your victory signs as you have just hit the lotto! Most tanks have just one weapon that is the whole reason why they are taken into account, if you destroy that weapon the tanks usually become pointless for your enemy. And if you land immobilized results be happy that now any of your other units can run up there and make all their attacks count without having to roll to hit. And also as a bonus you can immobilize a vehicle and then rup up to it with ur fex and hit it hard without worrying about it moving away like in the case of many eldar vehicles.

And these situations come up all the time. In every battle my VC proves it's worth. I highly suggest you try it and see for yourself.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 00:08   #3 (permalink)
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Default Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Have you only read the rule or actually tried the weapon in-game? That's the big difference mainly between people who say 'omg the VC is horrible it can ONLY glance' and those that say 'glancing is good enough, VC is a great weapon!'
Easy there tiger, your condescension is neither justified, nor acceptable. In case it wasn't clear, I was not calling you a liar. You are pretty much the only person I've seen advocate the VC as anything other than mediocre anti-tank, so I am (hopefully) understandably surprised.

In 4th, I ran a VC/BS Tyrant and Fex. Virtually all of my successful (i.e., prevented firing in some way) anti-tank was readily accomplished by the BS, rending, Warp Blast, and MC AP bonus. My VC consistently underperformed. So I am surprised when I hear someone touting it as the premier anti-tank in a 'nid list.

With the Blast Weapon changes in 5th, I'd certainly say that the VC moves above the BS as far as tank hunting is concerned, but I'd almost always rather have Warp blast and assault based anti-tank, given its proven effectiveness for me. I still take VC's, I just never take very many of them because I never found them to be very useful (in several years of playing).

And to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced the CC fex will work all that well, but my 3rd ed Screamer-killer will find some use in my list as an elite choice.

My new list will likely only have two or three VC's in it. And even then, most of those will likely be in the hands of warriors. One will be in the hands of my old Lash Whip & bonesword Tyrant model, but I may slap Warp Blast on him to ensure maximum lockdown against vehicles in range.

So in short, I'm surprised that you have such success with them, that's all. To be fair, I haven't taken a good long look at the vehicle damage chart in 5th, so if glancing hits have been improved I'll stand corrected.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 00:58   #4 (permalink)
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Default Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

Ah okies, my mistake then I thought you were calling me a liar and tossing dirt on my wonderful VC.

It is a great weapon man, dunt know what i'd do without out it. Well actually recently i've played a couple of games without it because i had no models painted with it and I definetly felt like i was under-performing.

If you see my battle report vs chaos space marines 2000p, my opponent had a defiler that I was worried about all because I didn't have my trusty VC to shoot it with.

The VC's strongest point is the high strength it gets making it useful against any and all tanks. While you can't get Wreked or Explodes with it, it's still a great thing capable of destroying vehicles at a distance.

Back in 4th edition the VC was even mightier i'm really surprised to see that you had little success with it. I ran 3 sniperfexes in 4th edition in almost every list i made and i was virtually flawless tanks to their ability to quickly decimate enemy vehicles.

I even faced off a whole armored company from guard with my standard list and i won by massacre because I would wreck, stun, armament destroy 2 vehicles per turn.

There's not many units in 40k that can dish out 2 S10 and 1 S8 attacks all in one go. IMO in 4th edition tyranids had the best anti-tank weapon in the game. In 5th edition it's been powered down but still very useful for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post. Carnifexes should ALWAYS have a VC the 2nd weapon can be whatever else.
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Old 30 Oct 2008, 19:12   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

I've also had much success with the VC in 4th but I've recently found more success with 3 Zoanthropes with Warp Blast. They're T4, I know, but with the new shielding rules, you can get cover saves much more easily with 'thropes than you can with 'fexes now, making fexes a lot easier to take down. Additionally, the 3 thropes cost as much as a beefy sniperfex but have something to do if there aren't vehicles nearby. I always found that my fex was twiddling it's proverbial thumbs once I took out vehicles because the VC is only AP4. Plus, 'thropes give me an added synapse web.

I'm by no means bashing the VC, but I've found more success with Zoanthropes in general, and since 5th edition they're even better! The new blast rules really favor the 'nids because I always got so upset when I would flat-out miss with a blast weapon. Now we're still hitting 1/3 of the time (which isn't as bad of a hit as BS4 armies) and the lack of partials means that my S5 AP3 templates are usually causing 3-4 hits. Plus, no one wants to waste their precious plasma on a 'thrope when there are hive tyrants running around, so Zoanthropes end up lasting quite a long time on the table, surprisingly.
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Old 30 Oct 2008, 22:18   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

lol oh man i must be the only person with horrible luck with zoanthropes and the focused warpblast shot.

I can never get the stupid thing to do anything useful. I usually miss in one way or another.
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Old 17 Nov 2008, 00:51   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

You do know that the scything talons do not grant the venom cannon another attack, correct?

A fex with scything talons has an attack stat of X+1, not (X+1) meaning, it has it's basic, and then an additional for the scything talons. The venom cannons attacks are based off of the basic attack stat.

Also, I find much more use in the barbed strangler than the VC. The trangler is very versatile, being used against infantry and tanks alike. Several times I have taken out a monolith first shot with one. The 'only glances' rules really hurts against heavy tanks, but against open topped or skimmers it doesn't make much of a difference.
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Old 17 Nov 2008, 05:03   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

Hey, Scottish, Carnifexes have 2 attacks profile, the only time it is X is if you take crushing claws....
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Old 18 Nov 2008, 08:49   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottish Obama
You do know that the scything talons do not grant the venom cannon another attack, correct?

A fex with scything talons has an attack stat of X+1, not (X+1) meaning, it has it's basic, and then an additional for the scything talons. The venom cannons attacks are based off of the basic attack stat.

Also, I find much more use in the barbed strangler than the VC. The trangler is very versatile, being used against infantry and tanks alike. Several times I have taken out a monolith first shot with one. The 'only glances' rules really hurts against heavy tanks, but against open topped or skimmers it doesn't make much of a difference.
Err...venom cannon on a fex gets 2 shots, fex have base 2 attacks bro see the Tyranid Codex entry for carnifexes.

and also you can't take out a monolith with a barbed strangler because at best you'll simply glance it just like a venom cannon. And using the monolith as an example of how the strangler is better than a venom cannon fails because...

Venom Cannon vs AV14 = 2 Shots BS 3(ES) Glance Only

Barbed Strangler vs AV14 = 1 Shot BS 3(ES) Glance Only


Oh and the strangler SCATTERS to make things worst for it.

So that's 2 shots that hit 50% of the time and can glance AV14 50% of the time

versus

1 Shot that hits 33% of the time scatters 66% of the time most of which will throw you completely off whatever vehicle you are targetting or at best let you hit it at half strength (S4 vs AV14? I think not) and after going through all THAT trouble just to hit the stupid tank, you get a ridiculously low 16.66% chance to GLANCE

You may like THOSE odds but I much rather stick to the Venom Cannon odds. It seems to me that it's no contest whatsoever in a Venom Cannon vs Strangler comparison on AV14.

VENOM CANNON FTW!
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Old 18 Nov 2008, 11:33   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Venom Cannon and Anti-Tank

Akaiyou... we agreed on something.... I'm scared...
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