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Old 03 Oct 2008, 16:54   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default ork boyz

Today i watched my friend play another one of my friends, the game being chaos vs orks. All seemed fair to me, but when the ork player charged , he announced he got 4 attacks per model. Assuming he got the rules wrong, i picked up his codex as checked. Indeed they did have 4 attacks on the charge. What staggered me was the fact that they were 6 points each.

I'm facing the ork player next week, and as a tyranid player I'm a little bit worried. I do a horde army, and the fact that his models get 2 extra attacks than my spine gaunts, and extra toughness, all for 1 point.

So my question is, how would you approach it? I was planning to take a barbed strangler fex, with warrior deathspitter support, but as for my troops, should i try to out horde him, or use genestealers?
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Old 03 Oct 2008, 18:09   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: ork boyz

Easy. Make sure he doesn't get teh charge. Tyranids have access to some of the most mobile CC units in the game. Tie them up with Hormagaunts and Raveners. Fleshborers will be your best friend, so I recommend taking Termagants over Spinegaunts for this fight. Another possible investment would be T7 Carnifexes outfitted for cheap CC. Lictors will also be a very worthy investment, with Preferred Enenmy, or Genestealers with Feeder Tendrils.
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Old 03 Oct 2008, 23:46   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: ork boyz

Just about every time I've successfully defeated the Orks, it's been all about troop positioning, and as Gada said, making sure I was the one charging rather than him. Every time I've lost to the the Orks when I first started playing them, it was all about troop positioning too, except I was the one that got charged.

The only time I got charged and it worked out well was a squad of bikers and and Nob that charged my Broodlord and Retinue. They rode in only to get gibbed to pieces before they could even react, and tried to flee only to get cut down by a sweeping advance. Big Mobz, that's not going to happen though, you really need to make sure they do not charge you.
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Old 10 Oct 2008, 16:18   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: ork boyz

The problem with playing against orks isn't even so much their CC ability, it's their shooting. The Shoota has become an excellent weapon, and squads of 20 shoota boys with Powerclaw Nobs are now the most common unit used by ork players. With an 18" range and Assault 2, their guns tear through most lightly armored units and I've been finding my orks even challenging the shooting of marine tactical squads, despite costing 30 points less. Mobile medium-range firepower will be the bane of your fast melee units (in particular the hormagaunts).

Do your best to avoid their 24" effective reach, and cling to cover as though the rest of the board is hot lava (assuming that is isn't actually hot lava, of course).

However, fear battlewagons. They are the largest ork transport, and they carry units of 20. This wouldn't be nearly so bad if they weren't open topped, but being open topped means that their ork boys can move 12" in it, disembark, Fleet of foot, and then charge. If they're close enough that their fleet of foot wouldn't matter, they can simply choose to shoot you first. Even if they aren't using it as a way to launch an assault, they can just sit inside of it and fire with every single weapon in their squad, measured from the hull of hte battlewagon. These assault craft/fire bases are very difficult to get rid of, and I haven't found an effective way for tyranids to destroy them without excessive use of Warp Blast. Assaulting it with a carnifex or hive tyrant is foolhardy, as though you will likely destroy the battlewagon, you will subsequently be charged by the orks inside, and as noted giving orks the charge is never a good idea.

Don't be caught unawares - Orks have fleet of foot, although only once per game. This means that they are just as manouvreable as your genestealers for the turn that it counts, and have shooting attacks for all the turns it doesn't.

One thing that I would heaviliy suggest AGAINST is trying to tie them up. Tieing up is for brutal melee units with high str, weaponskill, Initiative, etc. Orks have attacks, and lots of them - any "tie up" unit that you could possibly put out there will either kill lots of orks (therefore not being tie up) or die at an incredible rate. Either hit them hard, or wait to hit them. Using "focused strikes" against certain parts of the army will ensure that the tie up units collapse, and then the rest of the ork army surrounds your focused section. Try to match them on a unit-by-unit basis, because if they have an unengaged unit with combats all around, then that unengaged unit WILL get the charge, freeing up another unit.

That's all I've got for right now.
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Old 12 Oct 2008, 05:52   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: ork boyz

Orks can be dealt with rather easily if you know what you are facing off against.

First off consider what's good against orks? Two Words...BLASTS!

Blast them to hell and back. Barbed Stranglers and Deathspitters. Take as many as you can and take 3 lictors and your horde of gaunts. Now the key is to NOT MOVE FORWARD!

let them come to you. yes ork shooting has definetly got much better, however Tyranid shooting > Ork shooting. Let them feel it with your blast weapons pouncing on them for 2 or 3 turns even (they have assault weapons and so do we, so we can shoot while moving back!

Take 2 carnifexes with venom cannons and they will deal with ANY vehicles the ork player can bring super effectively. It's almost unfair.

You should be able to avoid assault range for 3 turns with tyranids while shooting them constantly you should get rid of at least 1/3rd of the ork army by the time they are in assault range. By then you should have your lictors out (make sure to deploy area terrain near YOUR deployment zone) and unleash the fury of your gaunts backed up by a lictor! Gaunts can challenge orks on even grounds when backed by a Lictor. You should easily wipe out whatever unit makes it to your lines like this.

Piece of Cake.

When you know what you are facing it's always easier to deal with it, specially if your army can be fitted to counter theirs. This is the blessing of Tyranid players. The ability to customize our stuff to our liking to fit any occasion, there is really no army out there that is "Tyranid-proof" or that Tyranids should have a hard time beating if we have prepared for the occasion.

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Old 12 Oct 2008, 14:21   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: ork boyz

When did Tyranid shooting get better than ork shooting? I find this impossible to believe. Orks have some of the best medium range firepower in the game now (some would argue THE best), and with long range shooting that certainly equals or beats Warp Blast/Venomcannons. A Cannonfex, with twin-linked venom cannon, despite your belief, does NOT destroy battlewagons easily - and why someone would even have such a model to put down on the table, I don't know. However, they are along with Zoanthropes the best thing Tyranids have to destroy ork vehicles, and if you're specifically tailoring a list to use vs. Orks, by all means include them.

Your post seems to be on the preconception of orks from their previous codex, rather than now. Orks can (and will 9 times out of 10) out-horde tyranids. Orks have good transports too, which often allow about half of their army the charge over all of your units besides hormagaunts. Gaunts will not hold their ground vs. orks without outnumbering 1.5 or 2 to 1, nor can they hold their ground on even numbers with a Lictor. The only way is to thoroughly out-point the orks if choosing to use gaunts, and that can hardly be called a useful strategy.
Math: 30 Gaunts charging 30 orks, with Lictor.
4 lictor attacks, 2.666 hits, 2.22222 wounds
60 gaunt attacks, 45 hits, 15 wounds
14.35185183 Orks die.
45 ork attacks on gaunts, 30 hits, 15 wounds
14.35185183 Gaunts die.

Lictor + 30 gaunts: 230pts minimum, 260 if armed with fleshborers.
Orks: 180pts.

Orks lose the first round of combat by 2. In subsequent rounds, they make a mess of the gaunts since gaunts now only have 1 attack each, and have their number halved. Now imagine if the orks had charged - which is not unlikely, given that Orks have fleet too!
30 gaunts charging 20 orks
60 gaunt attacks, 30 hit, 10 wound.
8.333 orks die.
36 ork attacks, 24 hits, 12 wounds
10 gaunts die.
Orks win the combat, even when being charged.

Pts ratios:
30 gaunts: 150pts spinefist, or 180pts fleshborers
Orks: 120pts

Do not toss your gaunts against the orks unless you have to. Of course, there's the problem with gaunts vs. orks as a whole - your range (unless you're using the ever-eusive and useless Devourer gaunt) is 12", so you will either shoot and be charged, or charge. Gaunts are not a particularly effective choice to use against orks, if you are tailoring a list specifically to use against them.

Hormagaunts are twice as expensive as an ork, yet die just as easy as a gaunt to small arms fire (which orks have lots of). Their charge is deadly, but you will be charged just as often as you are able to get the charge, if facing a smart ork player, if they aren't shot down (they are typically top priority, being fast, deadly on the charge, and incredibly easy to kill). If you are guaranteed a charge somehow, then they are useful. In all other circumstances, they are not.

"Okay, so what IS effective vs. orks?"
Combat monster units. Rippy Tyranid warriors with 2x scything talons do the trick quite well, as do genestealers. The big reason why, is that if you can force orks to take an LD test SOMEHOW, then they usually fail. The absolute best way is to beat them in combat by a large modifier - if they're still fearless, they take many extra wounds. If they aren't, they're effectively dead as your high I will catch them as they flee and allow you to consolidate. To this end, deny them wounds - take extended carapace on everything. Aside from helping vs. small arms fire, it's the best combat upgrade you can pay for.

However, also be wary of tossing Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes into ork squads. Orks are almost always fitted with a powerclaw nob, who cannot be targeted out of the mob. While your tyrant or fex is killing 1-4 orks per turn, the powerclaw nob will be doling out 3 S8 Ignores armor saves attacks. The only squads where you should toss your tyrants/fexes is against squads without PKs (and trust me, these are few and far between) or squads like Meganobz, in which case you are likely enough to cause more damage than you're worth, even if you do explode in a shower of gore 2 seconds later.
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Old 12 Oct 2008, 18:25   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: ork boyz

Like said before Barbed Stranglers and Deathspitters are simply death against Orks, considering how much better blast weapons are now, giving them no save against the attacks. This will thin the numbers before they have to chance to reach you. Another idea that I haven't seen offered is Biovores with Frag Mines. Not only are you laughing at him through having his own DNA used against him , but these are strong enough to wound the Orks on a 4+ and they don't get a save against them either.

These, combined with careful placing and targeting, should see you successfully taking down the Ork menace.
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Old 12 Oct 2008, 19:09   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: ork boyz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Ork
When did Tyranid shooting get better than ork shooting? I find this impossible to believe. Orks have some of the best medium range firepower in the game now (some would argue THE best), and with long range shooting that certainly equals or beats Warp Blast/Venomcannons. A Cannonfex, with twin-linked venom cannon, despite your belief, does NOT destroy battlewagons easily - and why someone would even have such a model to put down on the table, I don't know. However, they are along with Zoanthropes the best thing Tyranids have to destroy ork vehicles, and if you're specifically tailoring a list to use vs. Orks, by all means include them.

Your post seems to be on the preconception of orks from their previous codex, rather than now. Orks can (and will 9 times out of 10) out-horde tyranids. Orks have good transports too, which often allow about half of their army the charge over all of your units besides hormagaunts. Gaunts will not hold their ground vs. orks without outnumbering 1.5 or 2 to 1, nor can they hold their ground on even numbers with a Lictor. The only way is to thoroughly out-point the orks if choosing to use gaunts, and that can hardly be called a useful strategy.
Math: 30 Gaunts charging 30 orks, with Lictor.
4 lictor attacks, 2.666 hits, 2.22222 wounds
60 gaunt attacks, 45 hits, 15 wounds
14.35185183 Orks die.
45 ork attacks on gaunts, 30 hits, 15 wounds
14.35185183 Gaunts die.

Lictor + 30 gaunts: 230pts minimum, 260 if armed with fleshborers.
Orks: 180pts.

Orks lose the first round of combat by 2. In subsequent rounds, they make a mess of the gaunts since gaunts now only have 1 attack each, and have their number halved. Now imagine if the orks had charged - which is not unlikely, given that Orks have fleet too!
30 gaunts charging 20 orks
60 gaunt attacks, 30 hit, 10 wound.
8.333 orks die.
36 ork attacks, 24 hits, 12 wounds
10 gaunts die.
Orks win the combat, even when being charged.

Pts ratios:
30 gaunts: 150pts spinefist, or 180pts fleshborers
Orks: 120pts

Do not toss your gaunts against the orks unless you have to. Of course, there's the problem with gaunts vs. orks as a whole - your range (unless you're using the ever-eusive and useless Devourer gaunt) is 12", so you will either shoot and be charged, or charge. Gaunts are not a particularly effective choice to use against orks, if you are tailoring a list specifically to use against them.

Hormagaunts are twice as expensive as an ork, yet die just as easy as a gaunt to small arms fire (which orks have lots of). Their charge is deadly, but you will be charged just as often as you are able to get the charge, if facing a smart ork player, if they aren't shot down (they are typically top priority, being fast, deadly on the charge, and incredibly easy to kill). If you are guaranteed a charge somehow, then they are useful. In all other circumstances, they are not.

"Okay, so what IS effective vs. orks?"
Combat monster units. Rippy Tyranid warriors with 2x scything talons do the trick quite well, as do genestealers. The big reason why, is that if you can force orks to take an LD test SOMEHOW, then they usually fail. The absolute best way is to beat them in combat by a large modifier - if they're still fearless, they take many extra wounds. If they aren't, they're effectively dead as your high I will catch them as they flee and allow you to consolidate. To this end, deny them wounds - take extended carapace on everything. Aside from helping vs. small arms fire, it's the best combat upgrade you can pay for.

However, also be wary of tossing Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes into ork squads. Orks are almost always fitted with a powerclaw nob, who cannot be targeted out of the mob. While your tyrant or fex is killing 1-4 orks per turn, the powerclaw nob will be doling out 3 S8 Ignores armor saves attacks. The only squads where you should toss your tyrants/fexes is against squads without PKs (and trust me, these are few and far between) or squads like Meganobz, in which case you are likely enough to cause more damage than you're worth, even if you do explode in a shower of gore 2 seconds later.
What are you on?

I didn't say use twin-linked venom cannon.
And in all your mathhammer you don't make any sense because my whole strategy said to WITHER the orks BEFORE getting into assault. Thus those gaunts would not be facing 30 orks. They'd be facing about 20, assault them and kill 15. 5 orks won't be able to kill the remaining gaunts specially with the lictor there backing them up.
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Old 12 Oct 2008, 20:47   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: ork boyz

And I said at the top of my discussion that one of the biggest problems with your logic is thinking that tyranids have better shooting than the orks, or have any way of provoking the orks to come to them and get charged. Orks will either get within medium range for their firepower and unload into you, dealing FAR more damage than they could recieve, or they'll charge you. The majority of their firepower outranges the majority of your firepower, and their most powerful firepower outranges your most powerful firepower. You will be going to them, or they will be coming to you in fast assault craft that will give them the charge. Your best hopes of getting the charge entails you coming to him with hormagaunts and leaping warriors.

Another thing that I hadn't even previously considered - are you assuming that all of the orks are on foot? Entirely footslogger armies are incredilby rare, as most will have trukk boys to guarantee the charge to the army's slower units, or battlewagons to protect their large units from templates while also providing a long range charge. Assuming you ARE talking about an all footslogger army I'm actually inclined to agree that barbed stranglers and deathspitters are effective - however all footslogging armies take their cover with them, and will likely outnumber any tyranid army not entirely based off of gaunts by two or more to one.

Whatever the case may be, I can't imagine your strategy of "withering" the orks before combat to be even slightly effective - based on their unit selection, they will either outshoot and "wither" you, or they will charge you. All derogatory comments aside, I fail to see what you don't understand about this.
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Old 12 Oct 2008, 21:17   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: ork boyz

So Orks are swarmier, shootier, faster, and better in assault than 'nids? What the frack do we have? :sadnshocked:
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