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Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 08:30   #1 (permalink)
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Default Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

RAVENER
My analysis
BIOWEAPONS
Rending Claws + Scything Talons - YES - This is THE configuration to take! You now will have the ability to damage almost anything in the game! Excluding AV 14 all around vehicles.
Scything Talons x2 - NO - This may be a cheaper set up however for 2 extra points you lose +1 attack and gain rending. Making this a bad deal. If you simply want more attacks you'd be better off investing in a group of 8 SpineGaunts for just about the same price.

WEAPON SYMBIOTES
Ranged
=========
Deathspitter - YES - This weapon is not so bad for raveners, The ravener statline is perfect for assaulting, so why spend 6 points on a weapon that's geared for mid-distance shooting? It is a better value than getting spinefists for the same price!, but you really do want your raveners to hit combat ASAP. However in some occasions you'll find that even if u RUN and get a 6 you wouldn't be able to assault your target so this is where this weapon comes in handy. Performs decently against open-topped light vehicles as well. With the 5th edition rules you can safely hide your raveners behind gaunts shooting deathspitters until you are in range of assaulting. In most cases killing just 1 enemy model with shooting will earn you the points spend on his weapon so why not take it?
Devourer - NO - This weapon is EXPENSIVE! costs almost 2x as much as the other two ranged weapons. However it is pretty effective against low T bad Sv enemies. you get 9 S3 shots that re-roll wounds. Sounds great right? However it's range is only 18"! At that range your ravener has 1/6th chance of assaulting the target! And the closer you get the better the odds for assaulting become, and with Raveners you'll make the most of them when you are in CC so it makes it really hard for this weapon to make it's points back, since most of the time you'll decide to gamble on a RUN result to attempt to assault.
Spinefists - NO - The ravaner can assault at 12" from an enemy which is also the effective range of spinefist. You CAN do both shoot and then assault, however you pay 6 points for an extra 3 S4 attacks? And lets remember that the ravener is just as vulnerable as a gaunt due to most guns in the game having ap5 or better. In most cases you'll forgo shooting with a ravener and instead RUN to make use of the Ravener fleet rule to extend your assault range.

Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
Raveners are mix of a Warrior and a Hormagaunt. Like a Warrior they have a good offensive and defensive stat line and can take rending claws, and like a Hormagaunt they are amongst the fastest units in our codex and can support any other unit in gaining victory. They are what most would consider our BEST Fast Attack choice. It is a good idea to just take 3 and turn them into 3 separate units, this works well as the opponent would not desire to shoot at 1 single model instead of the hordes most of the time. But this can also hurt you greatly in Kill Point missions so its not as desired to use in this manner then.

1 Ravener @ 46 Pts
Rending Claws; Scything Talons (x1); Deathspitter


- This set-up is great! You get a S5 small blast template that you can drop on enemies nearly every turn from far away or even from within 12" range and then assault as normal. Try and avoid shooting withing 13" - 18" range of the enemy, as this is the distance where you really want to RUN and attempt to assault. Remember your main attack is CC not Shooting! The gun is there because it's cheap, can make it's points back really easy and it gives you versatility as well as added killing power before the assault. Rating 10/10

1 Ravener @ 40 Pts
Rending Claws; Scything Talons (x1)


- If you really don't want the extra shooting or can't afford the points then go with this basic set up. You'll be focused on using RUN and cutting the distance to the enemy every turn until you can assault. It's still a very effective set-up. Rating 8/10


Gargoyle Brood
My analysis
Gargoyles can not be customized, sadly, but they are already good as is. Consider them to be Gaunts that you are paying 6 points to gain Bio-Plasma and Wings bio-morph for.

Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
Take them either very small or very large groups. 10 for small squads and 20 - 30 for bigger squads. This will either present the opponent with a small threat that he could consider dismissing in favor of shooting something else, or a very large threat that he needs to focus lots of firepower into. In general gargoyles will get shot to hell standing on flying bases makes them easy targets but it also makes them VERY good cover for monstrous creatures. So consider adding gargoyles to your list next time you take a Winged Tyrant and you'll have a moving 4+ cover save for him, very deadly combination.


Spore Mine Cluster
My analysis
Toxin - MAYBE - These are good to have because you always wound enemy models on a 4+ due to strength always = enemy toughness. AP4 makes this very effective against 4+ save infantry, however this loses out to frag mines against models with toughness 3 with anything but a 4+ save, and only does equal damage against T4 enemies with a 3+ or better save. Also note Toxin mines can ONLY attack open topped vehicles and will ONLY glance (automatically however).
Frag - YES - These are the choice mines! They are the most cost effective and do more damage against the large majority of infantry models. And are still able to glance AV 10.
Bio-Acid - MAYBE - These are the most expensive but most versatile of the mines because you can aim it at almost any infantry unit and vehicle and have a chance at damaging it.


Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
Take frag mines or don't take this at all and spend your points upgrading your other models. They'll be better spent on something else. Spore Mine Clusters are good as a sort of joke attack, lacks effectiveness in any battle compared to our other choices.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 14:21   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

On Raveners,

I general prefer Rending / Scything as well - but against units that are lesser armored, I'd go with the 2x Scything for the extra attack. As for the ranged weapons, I've never taken them, but I could see maybe.... maybe... purchasing one if you were planning on burrowing them in with Deepstrike. Since they can't assault the turn they deepstrike, you might want to be able to shoot - but honestly you can Run after you deepstrike, and you might want to use that to try and duck into cover or mobilize for the following turns assault options. Myself, I don't think I'll ever be purchasing the ranged symbiotes on my Raveners.

Spore Mine clusters:
I've had poor showings with these in almost every game I've use them in. There have been a couple of times they've melted stuff in games against lesser toughness and armor opponents though. I could see using them against Orks & IG - and I used Bio-acid mines in my last game against my Eldar opponent to pretty decent effect (launched from Biovores though, not the simple fast attack option) but I don't think I'd ever use them against MEQs, in my experience they've never been worth their points against them.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 15:08   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

I always use Bio-Acid spore mines. They are much too versatile to not take if you can afford the points and have a free Fast Attack slot.

Another Fast Attack option you didn't mention here are Winged Warriors.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 15:13   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

Where are the winged Warriors and winged Rippers? They are FA too... ???


Tyranid FA options are pretty straightforward. I personally like Spore Mines. I have used them to great effect in many games. Obviously swarm armies are going to be prime targets, but I like taking Bio-Acid for all around effectiveness. Toxins are especially good against open top vehicles. I don't think that Frag Mines are all that effective unless you knew what you were going to be facing. MEQ's just laugh off the blast. In my all around lists, I take Bio-Acid to cover the bases.


EDIT: Gada, you beat me to it...
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 19:23   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

I didn't put winged rippers and winged warriors because I already covered my analysis on those in the ripper and warrior threads respectively. And I'm analysing this one entry at a time based on how the codex is set up. So these three make up the FA entry.

Also frag mines are more useful and cost effective than the other 2 types against a wider range of opponents. That's how I judge what's better, by judging what's more cost effective against a broader range.

Bio-Acid is nice I used to use those a lot in the beginning, but I find that s3 hampers you against T4+ and it costs more. While frag mines do a lot more damage against anything with a 5+ save and still do damage against T4+ enemies.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 19:28   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
I didn't put winged rippers and winged warriors because I already covered my analysis on those in the ripper and warrior threads respectively. And I'm analysing this one entry at a time based on how the codex is set up. So these three make up the FA entry.
Well, you simply wrote them off - I wouldn't call that covering them.

I hope that munghi (sp?) will post something because he has a huge Winged Warrior army. As I understand, has fared very well with them.

Bio-Acid fares better than Frags because of the AP. There are enough units with a 4+ save that make it worth it to take Bio-Acid. The S3 is balanced by the AP against T4+ armies. I think what you are referring to is MEQ.

If you get 6 hits with a unit Frag mines on MEQ, 3 will wound, but because of the AP, you will statistically only down 1 model.

With Bio-Acid, your 6 hits will only yield 2 wounds, but the AP ensures that they will not get an armour save, giving you 2 kills over just one.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 19:59   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
I didn't put winged rippers and winged warriors because I already covered my analysis on those in the ripper and warrior threads respectively. And I'm analysing this one entry at a time based on how the codex is set up. So these three make up the FA entry.
Well, you simply wrote them off - I wouldn't call that covering them.

I hope that munghi (sp?) will post something because he has a huge Winged Warrior army. As I understand, has fared very well with them.

Bio-Acid fares better than Frags because of the AP. There are enough units with a 4+ save that make it worth it to take Bio-Acid. The S3 is balanced by the AP against T4+ armies. I think what you are referring to is MEQ.

If you get 6 hits with a unit Frag mines on MEQ, 3 will wound, but because of the AP, you will statistically only down 1 model.

With Bio-Acid, your 6 hits will only yield 2 wounds, but the AP ensures that they will not get an armour save, giving you 2 kills over just one.
I didn't simply write them off, I discussed my opinion on them the same way I covered my opinion on CC warriors.

Winged Rippers are actually pretty good if you read my ripper entry the Winged biomorph mixed with toxin sacs and spinefists is actually one of the strongest.

Any how back on the subject of the spore mines look here: spore mines

Frag Mines are more useful against 2+ saves, 5+ and 6+.

Bio-Acid is more useful against anything that's 3 - 4+ save.

If you really do fight MEQ all the time then by all means take bio-acid. But for a tournament where you wouldn't be sure what you'll be facing, frag mines definetly find the most use as they can target a wider range of enemies.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 20:57   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

Here's my thoughts on the spore mine (note that I haven't completely thought this through, but this is what I've settled with):

Against 2+ saves, obviously they will get saves anyway, so you might as well take the higher strength mines.

Against 3+/4+ if you were to take Frag you'll equal an MEQ's toughness, but you give them a 50% or 66% chance to save the shot. If you were to take Bio-Acid you give up 1 Strength, which is only equal to giving up 16% to wound. I'd rather give up 16% to wound than give them an extra roll with 50% to save.

Against 5+/6+ with Frag you negate their saves so the Bio-Acid advantage is gone, however you now gain a 16% advantage against an MEQ because of streangth. Then again, at 5+ and 6+ you have two values with 16% advantage over each which is a 32% advantage, over the 50% and 66% advantage of the bio-acid against 3+/4+ saves.

The way I've taken it is that when the Bio-Acid hits a 3+/4+ target the advantage is well more than what a Frag mine would do to a 5+/6+ simply because how powerful a 3+/4+ save is.

Tack on 3+2d6 for vehicle penetration and I think it's a winner.

If you know you're going up against a GEQ army, though, it's probably a better idea to take the Frag, but in general Bio-Acid, I think, is the winner.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 21:24   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

Good call Xanzar.

Also, considering the number of MEQ's that are out there (marines of all kinds, Crisis Suits, Necrons, etc.) and the number of 4+ saves out there (Aspect Warriors, Fire Warriors, even other Tyranids), Bio-Acid has always won out for me.

No matter the race, you will always find a suitable 3+ or 4+ armour save unit where you can drop these on.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 22:11   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed - Fast Attack

Have you guys given frag mines a shot tho? Or just speaking from what you see on paper?

I was a huge fan of bio-acid mines in 4th. But I guess you really do need to play test a couple of games for yourself against a variety of random opponents and compare for yourself which one is more useful.

Another thing to take into account is hit rate of the mines vs their targets.

The new scatter rules makes normal spore mines scatter fully since no BS is used to reduce the scatter. So it means you miss your intended target more often or you don't hit as many was you would've wished. Unfortunately most units of models with 3 or 4+ saves are small units (unless you are playing large games)

Where as frag mines target the typical poor save super large units meaning you are more likely to get a hit with a large number of wounds inflicted on your intended target even if it scatters.

You are right that the bio-acid mines are 2x as powerful as frag mines against 3+ and 4+ save models.

But the frag mines are 25% more powerful against 2+, 5+ and 6+ models.


Also I don't include vehicles in this because spore mines will hardly ever hit a vehicle and damage it with the new rules. 33% chance to hit and any scatter of more than 3" will blow you right off the hull. Definetly not worth using against vehicles.

Also remember when you miss and don't hit anything the mines land on the table and are a free kill point for your opponent.
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