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Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 23:31   #1 (permalink)
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Default Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

BROODLORD
My analysis
BIOMORPHS
Acid Maw - NO - This upgrade is useful specially with the change to the rending rules however it is costly and you need to sacrifice Feeder Tendrils and Implant Attack upgrades. Which makes this the least desired of the 3.
Adrenal Glands (I) - NO - Not needed unless facing some seriously fast characters.
Extended Carapace - MAYBE - Gives him a 3+ save which greatly improves his chances of survival in and out of combat but he'll still be very vulnerable as 3+ is good but not amazing.
Feeder Tendrils - YES - The prefered upgrade to anything else for the Broodlord as it is the ONLY WAY that you can get a group of genestealers to get preferred enemy with only one model in the unit having to pay the point cost for the tendrils. Due to his infiltrate rule the Broodlord is also a VERY good choice to accompany your first wave and provide them with preferred enemy at a very cheap cost.
Flesh Hooks - YES - VERY useful but not mandatory. Worth it's points.
Implant Attack - MAYBE - The broodlord is a very very good character killer when equipped with Implant Attack. Makes every unsaved wound count for 2, normally you'd only need to make the target fail 2 invulnerable saves and he's gone. On the downside the upgrade can be an expensive one and it prevents you from taking the much desired Feeder Tendrils. So take implant attack if you are wanting to assasinate some multi-wound models and already have a few units in your army with feeder tendrils.
Toxin Sacs - MAYBE - A bit high on the price tag but useful when combined with Feeder Tendrils.

General Recommendation


1 Broodlord @ 221pts
Feeder Tendrils; Toxin Sacs +1 S
6 Genestealers
Toxin Sacs; Scything Talons


- This is what I would call the best set up on paper. Take 6 stealers in the retinue because the typical MEQ squad will have 10 models. Statistically you should kill 8 of them guaranteed leaving only 2 models to retaliate which your squad should be able to survive and having killed 8 models in the unit there is no way that you could 'lose' combat without being already wiped out. Letting 1 or 2 models survive also allows you to keep the unit in combat during the opponent's turn to avoid being shot and guarantees you a victory during your own turn so that you may take on the next. What I looked for to come up with the best possible unit was killing power ability to make it's points back and ability to survive return attacks and to maximize the chance of winning in case of No Retreat. Rating 10/10

Recommended Configurations To Use
1 Broodlord @ 83 Pts
Feeder Tendrils; Toxin Sacs +1 S


- POWERFUL! This Broodlord can do it all and do it well, he can chew down any infantry and elites as well as take down the strongest of vehicles (monolith not included) and also performs really well against enemy characters.Rating 10/10

1 Broodlord @ 86 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Feeder Tendrils; Flesh Hooks


- This guy is great to provide preferred enemy while remaining relatively cheap and effective. Remember he's an independent character and as such he CAN join other units! So if his retinue get's destroyed make sure to join another unit to keep him alive! Rating 8/10

1 Broodlord @ 95 Pts
Flesh Hooks; Implant Attack; Toxin Sacs +1 St


- This guy is a character killer! a monster of 1 on 1 combat. He'll be able to kill most of the opponent's characters. Rating 7/10


KILLING POWER COMPARISON
BROODLORD
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Old 08 Oct 2008, 21:24   #2 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

Since no one has chimed in and the OP didnt mention it, how about that retinue?

In 4th, it was out because the Broodlord couldnt fleet, but with the run rules, its looking good, that nasty Broodlord with 5-11 of his closest friends that have infiltrated and are now running towards you ready to assault in a few seconds sounds scary... actually, back in 4th my opponents and I used to joke about how broken the Broodlord would be with fleet of foot :P
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 00:35   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

Alright so I played a couple more 5th edition games and I've had a change of heart in regards to the Broodlord.

The most effective set up is Feeder Tendrils and Toxin Sacs on the BL for maximum kill power against everything. Not only does he become ridiculously effective but he makes his points back much quicker.

You do lose a bit of killing power against GEQ and TauEQ since Toxin Sacs is overkill on everything toughness 3, but against anything T4+ and even against vehicles you become ridiculously more powerful.

I recommend this set up. I will also edit in a bit about genestealer retinue for the Broodlord.

GENESTEALER RETINUE
My analysis
BIOMORPHS
Acid Maw - YES - More powerful than having Toxin Sacs for the 1st turn of combat. You will hit the enemy very hard.
Extended Carapace - MAYBE - This is a good upgrade makes your stealers more survivable however dedicated enemy fire can quickly peel through this, making it a better option to try to move into cover or within assault distance right away.
Flesh Hooks - YES - If you are outflanking this comes in very handy as enemies will likely be in cover at their back lines. However this upgrade is not always necessary, you can live without it.
Implant Attack - NO - Unless you are specifically fighting models with multiple wounds this upgrade will be a waste otherwise.
Toxin Sacs - YES - This makes genestealers more powerful and capable of making their points back with ease in the long run.

WEAPON SYMBIOTES
Close Combat

=========
Scything Talons - YES - This upgrade will give you +1 attacks which is really really good with the nerf on rending. However it costs as much as adding EC it's a very expensive upgrade per model to add on. However of all offensive upgrades this is the best one next to feeder tendrils, and will allow you to make your points back quickly.

Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
I recommend you keep the unit small as it becomes easier to make your points back and keeps you from looking like a very big target on the field. Give the stealers Talons before anything else and make sure your broodlord has taken Feeder Tendrils. You can keep them base with just talons which improve their effectiveness immensely or if your stealers have no talons you can add in acid maw and toxin sacs to get a powerful combination that will make it's points back just as easily.

5 Genestealers @ 115 Pts
Toxin Sacs; Scything Talons


- The strongest reliable combination. More attacks and more strength to take out a wider range of targets. This is the ideal set up to strike the enemy hard and make your points back as quickly as possible while maintaining a strong offensive and defense. Rating 10/10

5 Genestealers @ 120 Pts
Acid Maw; Scything Talons


- Very powerful slightingly more expensive than taking toxin sacs but talons do so much more for you. And making your points back is very easy if you assault the right opponent. Rating 8/10


5 Genestealers @ 115 Pts
Acid Maw; Toxin Sacs


- Very powerful, the first round of combat is very deadly and the killing power is improved when paired up. Making your points back becomes much easier as they can easily kill whatever they encounter. Rating 7/10

5 Genestealers @ 100 Pts
Scything Talons


- Lots of attacks, and stronger than any other single biomorph when paired with a feeder tendrils wielding Broodlord. Highly recommended as it works very well offensively and defensively Rating 7/10

5 Genestealers @ 95 Pts
Toxin Sacs +1 St


- Very strong offensively slightly weaker at wiping out enemies during the 1st turn assault than Acid Maw, but stronger in the long run and also stronger against vehicles. Great reliable option Rating 6/10

5 Genestealers @ 100 Pts
Acid Maw


- Very powerful during the first turn of combat. This upgrade works absolute wonders against opponents with high toughness or that you would only be able to damage via rending like Wraithlords. If you want to charge in and wipe out the enemy as quickly as possible this is a very good option coupled with feeder tendrils from the broodlord Rating 6/10

5 Genestealers @ 80 Pts

- Very weak, but the Broodlord's feeder tendrils will help greatly making them a viable option if you want to go really cheap on points Rating 5/10
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 01:40   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

There are a number of problems with Broodlords. Our group did a fair bit of testing with him. I agree Feeder Tendrils and Flesh Hooks ( near mandatory) are excellent upgrades Toxin Sacs and Implant Attack are useful but by no means mandatory. Implant Attack makes him a good as a character killer, as you mentioned, and that is one of the areas where the Broodlord shines. Toxin Sacs seem to go hand in hand with this upgrade to really kit out a character killer.

I like most of your load outs upgrades but … I think Flesh Hooks should be on every build that is possible so I like your build of
Flesh Hooks; Implant Attack; Toxin Sacs
Or
Flesh Hooks; Feeder Tendrils; Toxin Sacs

I think extended carapace is unnecessary with a retinue. As far as the retinues go if they already benefit from Feeder Tendrils I would only add Flesh Hooks. So the squad would look like this

Broodlord; Flesh Hooks; Feeder Tendrils; Toxin Sacs
5 Genestealers; Flesh Hooks


He is a cc monster at a very reasonable cost. The problem is getting him into combat. He can be infiltrated with a retinue. This will limit the number of models you wish to accompany him as only five or six can be safely hidden. It also is no guarantee that he will not be shot up before he reaches combat. Run does not compensate for the loss of fleet. I need to get him into combat on his first charge.

That leaves us with outflanking and bringing him in from reserve. His lack of fleet hurts him here too though. At least from reserves he is not getting shot up on turn one though and he forces your opponent away from the board edges. But outflanking stealers without a Broodlord can take on most shooty troops from the back and cause havoc. They have fleet. The Broodlord has awesome power used against counter charging assault oriented squads but those generally are not going to be his available targets. If you are going after HQs in your opponent’s deployment zone, he can be quite effective.

Most opponents know the power of a Broodlord he has to do the most damage possible; you are looking at the him and his retinue not surviving until your next turn. You need to make the most out of him on his first charge. The broodlord is a gamble. If he gets into combat he’s absolutely lethal. I think that the Broodlord should be taken only after you have taken a Hive Tyrant. He is a possible 2nd HQ but the Tyrant is just better overall. He is a Synapse creature, he ignores armour and he rends. Seems a great choice against static armies. Unfortunately in 5th edition we are seeing armies either mechanized or we are seeing hordes moving forward into assault.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 02:00   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

See the rest of the analysis I posted. As far as flesh hooks I agree they are indeed very well worth the points but I have yet to encounter many enemies that are static enough to just sit in cover hiding the whole time. Specially ones that are good in combat, so that I can usually disregard going at initiative 1 in the rare occurence as these guys can't hurt me too much.

However if after taking the set up I recommended in the 'general recommendation' you find that you have a couple extra points left over I highly recommend flesh hooks.

EC is good but expensive and what I find is that I NEVER infiltrate anymore I always outflank with the broodlord so that I have a wide choice on where he deploys most of the time, often landing myself inside cover which gives me the exact benefit as having EC. In combat is where you really need EC in order to keep the unit alive to fight another day, but like you said, the Broodlord is infact a gamble for which you just want him to get in there and do the most damage he can that 1st or 2nd turn that he's on the board, so that I find EC less valuable as I don't expect the Broodlord's unit to be around for very long unless I can manage to pose an immediate threat to the opponent with some of my other units.

And Toxin Sacs is very valuable bro, on it's own it's not that great neither for the BL nor his retinue but coupled with FT and Scything Talons it is monstrous. Use the killing power calculator to check the effectiveness at making it's points back versus units of equal value. It definetly gives you a boost and improves your chance of killing everything from infantry to vehicles. However Talons is by far the best upgrade if you have the benefit of tendrils.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 02:25   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

I'm with Canabebe on this one, you pay a lot of points for initiative 6 and especially without EC, you have little survivability. Genestealers are most threatening because they kill you before you can strike back. Flesh hooks are very, VERY important for important genestealer units.

The other alternative is using the Broodlord's infiltrate to outflank (my personal favorite). I tend to buy him the full 12 man genestealer brood (I want minimum of 24 genestealers in my lists and this is the easiest way to do it), and I like to give them EC which is vital against AP5 rapid fire weapons). Unless your opponent specifically avoids both table edges, this means that the unit has effectively a 12" threat zone the turn they come in and can almost be guaranteed a charge, which is awesome. My usual Broodlord setup is EC, Feeder Tendrils, Toxin Sacs, and Flesh Hooks. EC again is nice to make sure my Broodlord can take some hits and keep on fighting, or for taking AP4 weapon hits from enemy units.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 03:06   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

Quote:
Toxin Sacs is very valuable bro
Yes, we agree. See my optimum squad

Quote:
EC is good but expensive and what I find is that I NEVER infiltrate anymore I always outflank with the broodlord so that I have a wide choice on where he deploys most of the time, often landing myself inside cover which gives me the exact benefit as having EC.
I agree with that statement. The logic is sound and if I took EC it would be on my stealers first not the broodlord. I'm not worried about cc. They are going to slaughter almost anything so I only have to worry about bolter fire. Realistically, they are not going to survive out in the open with or without EC but I would consider the extra twenty points for my retinue only if points allowed. I guess this is preference.

Quote:
but I have yet to encounter many enemies that are static enough to just sit in cover
You are playing a lot of SM aren't you. Around here we see a lot of guys sitting in cover in their own deployment zone on an objective. So much depends on the environment in which you play. Again, this is my preference to use Fleah Hooks.

As I said in my first post, we agree on most points. We just have a little difference in perspective based on what we normally encounter within our own gaming groups.

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Old 12 Jan 2009, 03:27   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Broodlord

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanaBebe
Quote:
Toxin Sacs is very valuable bro
Yes, we agree. See my optimum squad

Quote:
EC is good but expensive and what I find is that I NEVER infiltrate anymore I always outflank with the broodlord so that I have a wide choice on where he deploys most of the time, often landing myself inside cover which gives me the exact benefit as having EC.
I agree with that statement. The logic is sound and if I took EC it would be on my stealers first not the broodlord. I'm not worried about cc. They are going to slaughter almost anything so I only have to worry about bolter fire. Realistically, they are not going to survive out in the open with or without EC but I would consider the extra twenty points for my retinue only if points allowed. I guess this is preference.

Quote:
but I have yet to encounter many enemies that are static enough to just sit in cover
You are playing a lot of SM aren't you. Around here we see a lot of guys sitting in cover in their own deployment zone on an objective. So much depends on the environment in which you play. Again, this is my preference to use Fleah Hooks.

As I said in my first post, we agree on most points. We just have a little difference in perspective based on what we normally encounter within our own gaming groups.
Exactly, that's the reason why I leave defensive biomorphs out of my 'recommended' builds because I see it as a matter of preference really. It all boils down on the type of opponent and type of playing field.

I gave the Flesh Hooks a 'green' YES for this very reason because it is always worth it's points I just want to make that clear that I don't disagree on the usefulness of Flesh Hooks. But I do think it's a matter of who and where you play in regards to if you should take them or not. I actually play SM the least, It just happens that my opponents don't really camp against me much.

And yes carapace i gave a maybe because out in the open you'll get mowed down regardless I still see a lot of usefulness in it but I also see it failing as there's many weapons ap4.
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