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Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 02:20   #1 (permalink)
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Default Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

WARRIOR BROOD
My analysis
BIOMORPHS
Adrenal Glands (I)
- NO - I5 isn't all that useful and the point cost per model makes this get pricey fast it's best to avoid CC altogether.
Adrenal Glands (WS) - YES - One of the few CC biomorphs that can be somewhat useful defensively on mixed warriors. Just remember warriors should do CC defensively and never with the main purpose of getting into assaults.
Bio-Plasma - NO - Not useful for warriors. S6 won't do much difference on vehicles compared to S5 normal attacks now that all assaults are resolved against the back armor which tends to be AV 10. In CC this is a waste because they can't benefit from rending and you can't pump out enough of them to really do much damage.
Enhanced Senses - YES - Must have at all times, BS 2 is horrible on any gun, and we are not Orks. Make sure your warriors always have this, as they should always carry some type of gun! You may drop ES if you are taking deathspitters and stranglers because they'll scatter like mad anyway 1" doesnt help too much and if you are in need of points elsewhere it's safe to save the points here.
Extended Carapace - MAYBE - Shooting requires protection this is almost a must have, however IF you plan on taking a swarm army you can forgo this upgrade and get cover saves from your swarm. Swarm armies require you set up cheaper units so it works out well in any other case do take EC. If you are going for ranged shooting or mixed roles this is a very good upgrade to have.
Flesh Hooks - NO - Flesh hooks are our best friend in 5th edition but only on CC oriented units. Warriors should focus on shooting thus this upgrade is not necessary for them. And since warriors should enter CC defensively you won't really be in need of flesh hooks under most situations.
Leaping - NO - Such a great upgrade, but a total waste for warriors. This is for offensive CC warriors meaning NOT what you want to be doing. Raveners can fit the role of any warrior unit that wants to be 'leaping' around and do a better job at it.
Symbiote Rippers - NO - Pointless upgrade. Has no effect in 5th edition
Toxin Sacs - YES - Always take this biomorph! The stronger your guns the more kills you'll make. Tyranid AP is horrible compared to everyone else, however we have great shooting due to high strength and mass of shots so always take toxin sacs on warriors. The one time when I recommend not taking toxin sacs is when taking twin-linked devourers, because Str 3 re-rolling "To Wound" is very effective against just about any type of infantry. Your warriors are more cost-effective without it in that set-up.
Winged - NO - This upgrade used to be a HUGE NO! However 5th edition has improved it by making cover saves more readily available thus you can hide your winged warriors behind gaunts and the like for the equivalent of an EC and burst out and shoot at your discretion. Also remember if you take this, the warriors become FAST ATACK choices keep that in mind so as to not play an illegal army list. Note that you should NOT take wings on CC only warriors because you lack a good armour save to take return hits and even on shooty warriors this is bad because you can be sneezed at by just about anything after you come out of cover to attack and you won't get a save.

WEAPON SYMBIOTES
Close Combat

=========
Lash Whip - MAYBE - Decent defensive upgrade against CC oriented armies.
Rending Claws - Maybe - useless upgrade because you do not want to engage in CC. However could be useful defensively to some extent, looks very scary has nice psychological effect on enemies who are considering assaulting.
Scything Talons - YES - Best choice for warriors with long range weapons looking for a mixed role. This is more of a defensive weapon as you don't want to actually GET into CC with your Shooty Warrior but this will allow him to put up a better fight if engaged or if you shoot and assault. Plus it's the cheapest to get.

Ranged
=====
Barbed Strangler - Maybe - Very good anti-infantry. Be warned tho that it scatters like mad so aim it at the bigger squads to avoid a complete miss as much as possible. Not very reliable due to high scatter rate try before you buy.
Deathspitter - YES - Has possibilities anti-light tanks and anti-infantry however against tanks it is very ineffective due to the lack of accuracy of the scatter dice. So don't rely on it consider it an optional gamble.
Devourer - NO - Do not take by itself, because it's just not that good without being twin-linked.
Fleshborer - NO - Great strength and point cost but range too short to ever be useful. Just pretend it's not there.
Spinefist - NO - Same deal as with the fleshborer, the range is horrible, even tho it's cheap, the points you save won't be worth the lack of use.
Venom Cannon - MAYBE - Great anti light/mid armor tanks. Too pricey tho, so think about this carefully before deciding as the cost can pile up quick.
TL Deathspitter - YES - Best anti-tank for Warriors. can be used anti-infantry as well.
TL Devourer - YES - Best anti-infantry for warriors who are providing forward synapse. Much better than Barbed Strangler against opponents with better armor saves.
TL Fleshborer - NO - for 2 more points you can take TL Devourers making this upgrade pointless. Range also too limited.


Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
Unfortunately warriors are not good for CC. They excel at shooting or mixed shooting/cc roles, but never CC only. So steer away from focusing them for CC. Focus on shooting first and then add in a few CC upgrades if you want them to have a mixed role. However most of the time it's best to let them be shooting oriented only.

4 Warriors @ 104 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Twin-linked Devourer


- Most effective choice for warriors in terms of demolishing anti-infantry and providing useful forward synapse. Shines over all other set-ups for it's ability to take out any type of armor save through a shower of shoots that can't be replicated. Taking EC on them is crucial if not playing a swarm army. Take in groups of 4 - 6. Rating 10/10

4 Warriors @ 144 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons (x4); Deathspitter (x4)


- Your best all-round choice. Able to take on both light vehicles and heavy infantry. Due to it's 24" range this is a great unit to use as forward/mid range synapse. Take EC depending on what your troop choices are, if you are playing with lots of gaunts there's no need for EC however in any other situation do take EC. A group of 4+ always to ensure that whatever is hit, is hit hard. Rating 9/10

5 Warriors @ 157 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Scything Talons (x4); Deathspitter (x4); Barbed Strangler (x1)


- Another dedicated anti-infantry squad. Keep it small as the BS will be your main weapon and keep it outside of 30" range in cover to maximize it's usefulness against infantry. Dropping Large Blasts without any retaliation from most infantry units. Quite unreliable due to scatter but when it does hit, it will yield high rewards to make it worth taking. These guys can hold their own in CC and have anti-light vehicle power as well as added anti-infantry power at 24" range with deathspittersRating 8/10

3 Warriors @ 118 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons (x3); Deathspitter (x3); Venom Cannon (x1)


- Use this for anti-tank. If you really want a venom cannon this is the set-up you should go with as deathspitter can support within range. No EC on this unit instead deploy it behind cover and leave it there all game as a synapse node and a threat to any Light or Mid armor vehicle within range of the VC. Keep it small for better cover use and because you'll mainly make use of the VC. Rating 7/10

4 Warriors @ 160 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Winged; Twin-linked Devourer


- If you REALLY want wings on your warriors, this is a very good set up to use. It capitalizes on the awesome infantry demolishing power of the TL Devourers + The added range and mobility of wings to make what's arguably the deadliest anti-infantry unit in our codex. This unit is so good that it's point cost is absurd as a counter-balance so I would prefer not to even use it. Use it to take out the enemy troops that enjoy sitting at the back away from harm's way. With TL Devourers you should always take 4-6 warriors to really get the bang for your buck. Remember even tho it's useable you have much better options and keep them in cover behind your other units! These guys are extremely fragile unprotected. Rating 6/10
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 03:55   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

Ok first you have to go to the errata faq for tyranids. In fact it is 24. Due to the fact that everytime you roll a 6 you get a d3. So if you roll 2 sixes you will get a 2d3 roll.

Implant attack. use examples where this is useful. Without it you will still rape crisis suits, broadsides, liberians, chaplains, tech priest, and so forth. Sure a liberian may hurt you but you still gonna kill him anyway.

Implant attack helps but you shouldn't soley rely on it. I use to use it but why. Unless I knowledge if I'm fighting orcs.

Ok lets look at it miasma this way.
basic your ws 5
adren upgrade ws 6
miasma upgrade ws 7
ok look at the weapon skill chart.

The upgrade to six anything ws six hit you on a 4. Anything 5 or less you hitting on a 3.

Ok how many other guys out there is weapon skill 6. Most models in the game is 5 and under. The only models this helps you against is guard and sisters. Lets say you attack 10 guardsmen. You have six attacks. 4 hits and with acid maw 4 dead. This is where miasma changes the scenerio.

without miasma
4 attack back normal 2 powerfist
2 hit 1power fist hit.
.33% chance that hit does anything .50% chance with powerfist. I doubt they wound you lets say they did. You win by 3 wounds whick knock them down to 5 which they run and you wipe out the squad.

with miasma
like 1 hit and 33% with a powerfist. Hell I doubt they wound you here unless they lucky.

So you telling me ypu take miasma cause you scared of them in hth I guess. Miasma does nothing aginst marines, eldar, nids, tau, necrons ,orcs, daemons and dark eldar over all.

Ok warriors. I use these guys a lot they have improve greatly due to 5th. Currently I like this build.

warriors- deathspitter, scything talons.

Cost 28pts making this guy very cost effective. Don't need ec cause you have a 4+ cover save. Don't need es cause it's a blast weapon. Hell I love this cause I use to twin link these guys. At str 5 I say leav it alone. But at 33pts a unit of 3 with str 6 blast shots hit you a 99pts. While the other 3 hit you at 76pts. Also you have hvy support slots to take out heavies. 10 of these guys can ley a lot of fire power on infantry and only hitting you at 280pts.

Now cc warrior
2x scything talons
Bio-plasma
toxin
+1 ws
30pts

for 30pts you have a model with 5 attacks.

for 150 pts you have 5 of these guys. Compared to 10 normal marines.

If they assault that's 30 attacks. 5 attacks 2.5 hit. it's str 6 so it wounds on 2 so I gonna go with 2 wounds.
25 attacks 17 hit at str 5 would be 12 wounds so 14 wounds over all killing 4 marines. 10 marines hit back 5 hit and 2.5 wound killing 1. You win combat by 2 marines save no retreat. 4 warriors hit marines that's 20 attacks. 4 hits 2 hit probably 2 wound since on 2s
16 attacks I'll error on side of marines and say 10 hits 9 wounds from the other 2 killing 3 marines. 3 marines fight back 1.5 hit .75 wound. I'll go in favor of the nids and say no wounds. 1 marine will die to no retreat.

The next round the nids will kill the mrines off. I lost 30 pts to the marines 150pts

60 pts warriors vs 60 pts guard.

12 attacks. 1 hit 1 wound. 10 attacks 6hit. 6 wounds total. 4 guardsmen dead. 6 fight back. 3 hit and 1wds. Win combat by 3 ldrship 5 they run and you kill them and only lose one wound.

This cc warrior is pretty decent to use. Mainly as a counter attack unit. Not great against other hth units.

Winged Warriors
scything talons, scything talons, fleshhooks
this guy hits 38 pts the same as a ravenger -1 attack, rending. I like running these guys with gargoyles mainly as part of a ds.

Honestly warriors remind me of inquisitors. You want to throw a lot of points in them but they are actuall better if you go cheap.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 13:53   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
Unfortunately warriors are not good for CC. They excel at shooting or mixed shooting/cc roles, but never CC only. So steer away from focusing them for CC. Focus on shooting first and then add in a few CC upgrades if you want them to have a mixed role. However most of the time it's best to let them be shooting oriented only.
You make lots of general recommendations to keep warriors out of close combat, but I need to disagree with you. I almost always outfit my warriors for CC and CC only. I don't like taking mixed units, as I don't want any points spent on ranged to be useless while they are in CC, and if I bought them ranged biomorphs, I wouldn't want them to have many CC oriented ones.

My experience is that they do far better at CC then they ever do at range though.
I'll usually field a Warrior with Scything / Rending (depending on the opponent, higher armor value foes get rending, more swarmy stuff like IG & Orks get 2x Scything). I'll almost always take Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks, and Leaping. I usually take +WS, unless the opponent's stuff isn't likely WS:4. Sometimes I'll use +I or much less frequently Bio-plasma, but I consider those extraneous biomorphs that are point fillers if I haven't used them elsewhere - though +I can come in very handy vs Marines, an opponent I face a lot of. If I know I'm likely to be facing a highly mechanized army though, Bio-plasma + Toxin Sacs are sometimes a fair choice. STR6 Bio-plasma and a number of STR5 possible rends against vehicle rear armor is very often enough to do the trick.

Now, the Warriors like this can get expensive to field - which is why I usually like to keep the last few bio-morphs off my warriors and spend those points elsewhere, but used correctly on the field, these CC fighters are extremely useful. Leaping is a fantastic way to make sure you have quick Synapse support get across the field quickly with much of your Fleet stuff, and is particularly useful in combination with Hormagaunts and Raveners. (I know you mention Raveners doing their job better - but Raveners lack the tactical flexibility of providing Synapse, and die quicker than the way my warriors tend to be outfitted at 5+ instead of 4+) I prefer Leaping + EC to Winged, particularly now with the Run rule. Winged gives you more mobility but I don't like the crunchiness of 5+, 4+ makes for a far more sustainable fighter.

You just need to use them right. Don't run them alone into your opponents Assault Squads, CC equiped characters or Walkers - do run them into just about anything else. They're quite capable of tearing vehicles to shreds in 5th, and they'll maul non-CC oriented units and quickly leap into the next. They're also great against an opponents assault squads if you run them in, in tandem with a unit of Genestealers, usually wiping almost everything out before they get a chance to react. And leaping allows you to slingshot them around the board getting Synapse support into range quickly when you end up needing it. They're extremely versatile in terms of added CC support to just about any other unit that's fighting on the field.

Personally I love CC warriors, and probably down the line I'll buy a bunch and create a Warrior themed army. But I really wouldn't discount their usefulness outright. Sure there have been a few occasions where my opponent has targeted them first and they got shot to hell and didn't do a thing - except for draw fire away from other stuff. But generally the opponent is left having to fire at other things first if they are careful about their targeting priorities, leaving these quite capable CC fighters to get in and really cause mass havoc while providing a good deal of frontline Synapse support.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 19:14   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

you forget to mention that a CC warriror is the most expensive type and you can usually get quite a bunch of genestealers for the same value, and genestealers don't need synapse and can come from the flanks.

and yes you are right bout the raveners being more fragile if you give the warriors a 4+ save, making the warriors more survivable. However Raveners can deep strike and fleet. They are much faster than any warrior moving as fast as hormagaunts and they also have more attacks. Also Raveners can take a gun and not lose any of their CC effectiveness.

I will admit however CC warriors and raveners ARE interchangeable. Since they cost just about the same price to field and if you aren't rushing into CC, warriors are not so bad and are more useful with synapse support.

Personally I rather have a mixed warrior and let the raveners, genestealers do their job.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 19:25   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Personally I rather have a mixed warrior and let the raveners, genestealers do their job.
Noted, but the discussion is about Warriors. Nezalhualixtlan makes as complelling an arguement for using CC Warriors as you do about taking ranged Warriors.
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Old 29 Sep 2008, 19:44   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

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Originally Posted by 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Personally I rather have a mixed warrior and let the raveners, genestealers do their job.
Noted, but the discussion is about Warriors. Nezalhualixtlan makes as complelling an arguement for using CC Warriors as you do about taking ranged Warriors.
I didn't say that he didn't, i even admitted he's right in regards to the ravener vs cc warrior. And gave him credit.

However reading his analysis a lot of it seems to depend on knowing before-hand what you'll be facing, which I try to avoid in my analysis.

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Old 30 Sep 2008, 13:16   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
However reading his analysis a lot of it seems to depend on knowing before-hand what you'll be facing, which I try to avoid in my analysis.
Well, in terms of whether to add in Bio-plasma or Toxin Sacs, or a few of the extraneous bio-morphs, I won't do that generally unless I know it's going to be useful against the army I'm going to be going up against, also I drop Adrenal +I if I know it won't be needed, like against Necrons, but generally take it. However, the standard configuration I outlined works pretty well against just about everything.

Warrior 40pts total: Rending, Scything, Synapse, Adrenal +WS & +I , Extended Carapace, & Leaping

compare that to a rending Ravener w/o ranged weapons:

Ravener 40pts total: Rending, Scything

Warrior Advantage: You get Synapse and all its attendant benefits, and a better Armor save. If you have the points you can upgrade them further with Flesh Hooks, and Toxin sacs, or even bioplasma if they fit in your list - at a cost of course, but still, there is some tactical flexibility with this choice. The Warriors can be fielded in larger numbers than the Raveners as their max brood size is larger...

(also, these are Elites rather than Fast Attack, giving some strategic flexibility to your Force Org chart options, although I'd consider this a benefit to the army as a whole rather than a benefit of one unit type over the other. Want to use a bunch of Spore Mine FA? Go with Warriors, want to field a few Elite Carnifex? Go with Raveners It leaves your army list options open in the Force Org chart while allowing you to field fairly similar units)

Ravener Advantage: You get an extra attack, and a bit longer threat range, and the ability to deepstrike at the cost of the models resilience, and that the unit is subject to IB if you get outside of Synapse which can be easy to do if there isn't enough already on the board. The model can be fitted with a ranged weapon and maintain its CC ability (but, I actually think the advantage goes to the Warrior on this point: The Deathspitter is 1pt more expensive than fitting the Warrior with Flesh Hooks and Toxin Sacs, and like I said I never like to mix the purpose of my units) You also get the flexibility of a much cheaper unit since Raveners can be deployed in units of 1 model, where Warriors need to be fielded in 3s minimum.

Just for my playstyle I like the Warriors benefits better. But... I like it even more when I get to field them together, I find they make rather good support for each other, Raveners for the more pure offensive role, with the Warriors backing them up with nearly as good offense for Synaptic support.
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Old 30 Sep 2008, 14:02   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

I might try my winged warriors again and see how they do in 5th. In 4th I was able to terrain hope with then. They did pretty well since my ravengers always die before I could use them for anything. But people kinda sort off go for the warriors. If I had winged warriors by ravengers than most people will kill the ravengers . Than what's funny they go for my winged tyrant and my genestealers and pretty much leave my winged warriors alone.

My cc winged warriors I feel the pinch cause I'm paying 28pts raw. That's equal to a marine bike and hitting into terminater country.

All in all I always used my winged warriors to support my winged tyrant. With both groups working together they have done really well in the past. Also some gargoyles help to. I call this my nid air force.
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Old 30 Sep 2008, 23:30   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

lol Nid Airforce, i like that.

@Nezalhualixtlan

- I can agree to all that. However I still think warrior shooting is just too sweet to pass up. The number of enemies I've demolished with twin linked devourers is ridiculous, ranging from guards to terminators. warriors with twin linked devourers can kill damn near anything.
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Old 01 Oct 2008, 20:52   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Equipping Tyranids for 5th ed. - Warriors

I don't think I agree that TL Deathspitters are all that great. TL rules for blast weapons leave something to be desired, it's certainly not worth paying for the gun twice in my mind. I want more than a re-roll take the last, if it was re-roll player choice it might be, but the volley of 4+ deathspitters slows down the game enough as is.

I'm a bit gun-shy on the devourer warriors, but that's mostly from a bad gaming experience, I should playtest them again. Four unlinked shots is nothing to sneeze at, and the twin liking is well worth it if your game plan calls for, and can protect such a pricey and relatively fragile shooting base. However, the range of the devourer tends to call for a mixed role, as you will be within reach of fleeting units. I think scything talons or rending claws could be a good complement, reducing cost and lending resilience.

I've got to fall in with those calling for a re-assessment of CC warriors. I think many people would hold them in higher regard if they were able to take implant attack. They're ideal MC/IC killers with it, the perfect balance of numbers, durability, and lethality.

Even outside of dreamland they are very formidable close combatants, but do not have that final d6 before assault that raveners do. They still have a respectable number of attacks and a squad is slow to lose effectiveness due to the two wounds per creature and solid armor save. They can chew through troops about as well as raveners, but will survive better. You also never have to worry about outrunning your synapse protection if a hidden powerfist just so happens to be nearby.
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