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Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 18:25   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

Hi Nid players - I have a question for you - I regularly play against nids, do Hive Tyrants get cover saves from the tyrant guard being in cover? (under the 50 percent of the unit in cover rule). From reading the rules I'm inclined to believe that they do due to this loophole - but would really love it if they didn't - any ideas?
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 19:53   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

You cannot claim cover from a unit you are a part of. So no, if the Hive Tyrant is in a unit with the Tyrant Guard, then he doesn't get it.
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 20:20   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

yes, but the rules state that if 50 % of a unit is in cover the unit gets cover saves - and the tyrant guard and tyrant form a unit. So Monstrous creature rules state 50 percent of the model has to be in cover - but this is superseded when the MC is part of a unit, and the 50 percent unit rule takes precedence. - in the rules it seems right, I'm hoping its not tho!
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 21:33   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFishing
yes, but the rules state that if 50 % of a unit is in cover the unit gets cover saves - and the tyrant guard and tyrant form a unit. So Monstrous creature rules state 50 percent of the model has to be in cover - but this is superseded when the MC is part of a unit, and the 50 percent unit rule takes precedence. - in the rules it seems right, I'm hoping its not tho!
Ok, you have me confused. It seems to me like you are trying to ask whether or not the Hive Tyrant receives a cover save from the Tyrant Guard, correct?
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 22:09   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

I believe he is asking if the Gaurd can be in cover, giving the Tyrant the save.

.......G..G..T
WWWWW


........^Attacker^

The Guard are behind a wall, but the Tyrant is out in the open. Does the Tyrant get a save?
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 22:10   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

in a nutshell yes - if the guard are in cover - does the tyrant get a save
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 23:46   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

I would say yes, the Tyrant would get cover saves.

The cover saves main rule says that the entire unit gets "cover saves" for having half of the unit "in cover". Point Tyrant.

The Monstrous Creature rule for cover says that the MC is only considered being "in cover" if 50% of its body is in cover.
That is to say, the MC itself is to be "in cover" if 50% of it's body is in cover. That doesn't say it can't take "cover saves".

My main distinction is the difference between being "in cover" and receiving "cover saves". Obviously the first rule defines the distinction clearly enough. The Monstrous Creature rule simple states how the MC itself is to be considered "in cover" not how it would receive the cover saves.

Again, if it's not clear, I'm saying, yes, the MC (Tyrant) would receive cover saves if it's in a unit where 50% of the unit is behind cover but the MC (Tyrant) is not itself behind cover.
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Old 25 Sep 2008, 00:57   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

No. Why? Because the attackers draw LoS to the unit. If less than 50% of the model is viewable, then it gets a cover save. (Model, not unit)
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Old 25 Sep 2008, 01:37   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

From the rulebook, the first quote defines "cover" and "cover saves" for a full unit. In this case the unit is a Tyrant plus a majority of Tyrant Guards behind cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the rulebook
If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves.
In the situation in question there are a majority of models behind cover, say two Guards in cover and one Tyrant out of cover. Based on these rules the entire unit is deemed "in cover" because the majority of models are "in cover". Regardless of the special rules on the Tyrant because the Tyrant's "in cover" hard status isn't even in question. It's blatantly not in cover. But because a majority of the unit it is connected to is in cover the whole unit including the Tyrant is deemed in cover and thus receive a cover save.

Now, about the Monstrous Creature rules, from the rulebook, I quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the rulebook
In addition, for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body(as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models. Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to monstrous creatures - the 50% rule takes precedence.
Again, I admit the Tyrant itself is not in hard cover, but based on the rules of units partially in cover and because the guards form a majority cover the Tyrant is deemed in cover and thus received a cover save. The Monstrous Creature special rule only defines when a MC model is considered "in cover" not when it is to receive a cover save.

Imagine also a situation not even including a MC. Take for example even the example in the book. In one example over half of the models are not in cover. So no one in the unit received cover. OK. In the next example over half of the models are in cover. So the whole unit receives cover. In this last case, even though some of the models are not actually in cover they are deemed in cover and thus receive a cover save.

As I've repeated, there is a distinction between being models "in cover" and models receiving a "cover save". The MC rules only dictates when the model is itself "in cover" not how it receives a "cover save". The main cover save rule dictates when a unit with models both "in cover" and "out of cover" are to receive "cover saves" or not. That is, it dictates how an entire unit is determined to be "in cover" and thus receive a "cover save". You have to determine the majority LoS by determining each individual target model. The MC rule dictates how that LoS is to be drawn in comparison to other models' standard rules. The main rule simply takes the number of models determined to be in cover and out of cover to decide if the overall unit is given cover saves or not.
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Old 25 Sep 2008, 12:08   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard - Coversave.

I think Xanzar is right on here. If the Hive Tyrant doesn't have 50% of the model covered, it is not in cover, but that is only 1 model of the unit. If the unit is even just down to 1 Hive Tyrant and 1 Tyrant Guard, then all that needs to happen is that the Tyrant Guard has just a little of its model obscured by something (or an edge of its base in area terrain, or be between two elements of area terrain, or any normal situation that confers cover to a non-MC) for it to be in cover itself since it is not a Monstrous Creature. Then "half or more" of the unit is in cover, and it would confer a cover save to the unit as a whole. That means that if say 2 Lascannon shots come in and hit that unit, you'll end up allocating one to the Guard and one to the Hive Tyrant, but both models would get the appropriate cover save, even though the Hive Tyrant would not be in cover by itself.
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