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6 inches before game starts????
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 14:04   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default 6 inches before game starts????

ok I play tau and my buddy plays Nids, we both are fairly new to the game and something seemed off about this to me, but he took his broodlord (with infiltrate) as an HQ, and brought along his 5-11 genes, and gave them something that gave them ability to be a scout. He infiltrated 12 inches away from my guys behind a rock (so he wasnt in LOS) and then moved them with their scout ability within 6 inches of my guys, before the game even started. I was wondering if this is a legal action, not too up on all the rules ESPECIALLY for nids, so I had to ask.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 14:22   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

Your friend messed up the rules.

Genestealers can get a biomorph called "scuttlers" which give them the Scouts special rule. The Broodlord can not.

If your friend bought the Scuttlers upgrade for the Genestealers in the Broodlords Retinue the entire unit would lose the ability because the Broodlord can not have it. That's a pretty expensive upgrade to not do anything for you. The Broodlord would still allow the entire unit to Infiltrate (and Outflank, even when the Genestealers don't have scuttlers), so there's never any reason to buy Scuttlers for the Retinue. Also, even though the Genestealers are Fleet, the Broodlord is not, which means your friend can not use the Run move and then assault with the Broodlord / Retinue.

If for some reason the Broodlord dies before the rest of the Retinue, the rest of the retinue would regain being Fleet. But there's no way to really kill off the Broodlord prior to the game starting which means they'd never get the Scout move at the start of the game if you bought the Scuttlers biomorph for them. The Broodlord also can not detach from the Retinue because it is a Retinue, meaning the only way to separate the two is if the entire retinue dies freeing the Broodlord, or the Broodlord dies freeing the remaining Retinue.

Also to check, staying out LOS to be able to infiltrate in as close as 12" is very difficult these days with the new True Line of Sight in 5th. There needs to be literally no enemy unit that can draw line of sight to the Broodlord / Retinue, otherwise you need to set up 18" back. That makes it near impossible to get the Broodlord any closer than 18" in my experience with 5th games, and makes the Outflank option far more desirable.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 14:32   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

I felt it was impossible, but wasnt sure exatly how, thanks.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 14:41   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBrown
I felt it was impossible, but wasnt sure exatly how, thanks.
Regular Genestealers outside the Broodlord's retinue can make a 6" Scout move if he buys the Scuttlers upgrade for them, and deploys them normally to begin. But regular Genestealers can not Infiltrate. Buying the Scuttlers upgrade for them does allow them to Outflank like the Broodlords retinue however if you don't deploy them normally to begin with.

By and large, GW has set up the rules of the game to make 1st turn assaults near impossible to achieve - possible only if the person you are playing walks into it, impossible if they don't. The only way that can happen generally is if the first player moves a unit into striking distance of the second player during the 1st turn.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 14:46   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

now, the Genes with the HQ are counting as HQ until the broodlord dies (for caputering objective purposes) correct?

also, he said the synopsis rules out all possibilties of insta kills? is that true?
as if I am shooting him with a Tau rail gun str 10 AP 1, hmm maybe I should get a nid codex and read it.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 15:02   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBrown
now, the Genes with the HQ are counting as HQ until the broodlord dies (for caputering objective purposes) correct?

also, he said the synopsis rules out all possibilties of insta kills? is that true?
as if I am shooting him with a Tau rail gun str 10 AP 1, hmm maybe I should get a nid codex and read it.
Synapse, not Synopsis - but yes, that takes away the ability to insta-kill anything affected by it. Synapse is provided by a few key Units: The Hive Tyrant, Broodlord, and Tyranid Warriors all have it by default, and the Zoanthrope can purchase it as a Psychic power. The power extends 12" from any model with the power and is always on as a passive effect. All units with at least one model in Synapse range benefit from the ability. The ability makes those units Immune to Insta-death, except for Ripper swarms, and makes them automatically pass all Leadership checks (the one exception of target priority is gone as there are no more target priority checks in 5th), effectively making them Fearless and immune to falling back, and any kind of morale checks.

Some units pretty much require Synapse to function correctly though, Gaunts and Hormagaunts which do not have high Ld values, generally rely on a nearby Synapse unit to control them. Any unit that isn't Fearless already or has other Brood Telepathy-type rules that negate the need for Synapse (For example: Carnifex & Lictor don't need Synapse because they are Fearless, Genestealers & Biovores don't require Synapse because they have their own Brood Telepathy) may become subject to Instinctive behavior if they are outside of Synapse. If a unit that doesn't override the need for Synapse is outside of Synapse range, then if they want to move for any reason during the turn, they need to make a Leadership check - if they pass they are fine, if they fail they must immediately fall back towards the closest Synapse creature, or their table edge if all Synapse is gone. The may choose to stand still and not take the check and still fire ranged weapons. They may also choose to not take the Leadership check and do something called "Lurk" which gives them a +1 cover save, but disallows them to capture objectives or essentially be a scoring unit while lurking. Non-gaunt type units that require Synapse can still generally function outside of it due to their higher Ld values, though there is a slight possibility they will become subject to Instinctive Behavior. Although they can usually function ok outside of Synapse (as do any creatures that don't require Synapse), they do in fact benefit from Synapse if they are within range of a Synapse creature.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 15:10   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

ok I will have to check out his codex and find what units need Synapse to move cause I haven't heard anyhting about this yet, and thus far it sems that his units have MANY advantages and no downsides. he was bragging about some unit he has that make anyone attacking it, or attacking anyone within 12 inches of it make a leadership test to see if they can attack it, and it had an ungoddly amount of wounds. I really need to check into them and see where everything lines up.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 15:15   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBrown
now, the Genes with the HQ are counting as HQ until the broodlord dies (for caputering objective purposes) correct?
Right, retinue counts as HQ...but at the death of the broodlord they remain HQ and do not revert to Troop (or if they do I don't recall reading about it anywhere)...so they can never capture Objective, but can contest them.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 15:26   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBrown
ok I will have to check out his codex and find what units need Synapse to move cause I haven't heard anyhting about this yet, and thus far it sems that his units have MANY advantages and no downsides. he was bragging about some unit he has that make anyone attacking it, or attacking anyone within 12 inches of it make a leadership test to see if they can attack it, and it had an ungoddly amount of wounds. I really need to check into them and see where everything lines up.
It's probably the Hive Tyrant - The Hive Tyrant is the Tyranids main HQ-type unit and yes, it is a beast of a unit when used properly. They can wade into swarms of Space Marines w/o Powerfist killing and slaughtering them all with impunity in just a couple turns, and can rip vehicles to shreds. The Hive Tyrant has an ability called "The Horror" which is a passive Psychic ability which requires any unit that attempts to assault him to make a Ld check - if they fail, they can not assault that turn - it does not force anything around it to make the check though, they only check if they want to assault the Tyrant itself (or anything with the Horror, I think Zoanthropes can take that power too, though I never have with mine). It's also fairly high in Initiative, can be upgraded to have 2+ normal / 6+ inv saves, has 4 wounds at decent T, good strength and since it's an MC it ignores armor in CC with non-vehicles, and rolls 2d6+str pen vs. vehicles - and it can even be given Wings to give it really good mobility, or a Retinue of Tyrant Gaurd as meatshields to protect it from concentrated fire. You'll want to be hitting it with AP2 or better ranged weapons or mass amounts of smaller stuff to try and overwhelm it (or anything with high STR that negates armor in CC like powerfists - if the Tau even have anything like that, I don't know the army well). My general understanding of the Tau is that they excel at range though, so definitely focus on it from afar, a Hive Tyrant is a frightening thing to get involved in CC with.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 15:37   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: 6 inches before game starts????

Good questions Mr. Brown. I would encourage you to check out the Tyranid Codex and the stickies that are on the Tyranid board to familiarize yourself with the basics.

Good series of replies Nezalhualixtlan. +1 Karma for the consistent help.
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