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Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.
View Poll Results: Do Gaunts outside of synapse range count as scoring units?
Yes. The codex does NOT ever say they do not count as scoring units under any circumstance. 4 16.67%
Yes, but I understand the confusion because of misinterpretation of the lurking rule 5 20.83%
Not sure, we need an FAQ to clarify 3 12.50%
No. Any gaunts outside of synapse range are subject to IB rules and lurking 11 45.83%
No. Synapse is always required for gaunts to know what to do fluff wise 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 19 Sep 2008, 07:26   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

So this point was brought to me by someone who checked out my dino list where i have 40 gaunts and only 2 tyrants for synapse. As far as I know reading the codex raw and the synapse rules never states that units outside of synapse stop being scoring units.

And that tyranids MAY CHOOSE to lurk and thus not be able to claim objectives or hold table quarters (these are meant for 4th edition not 5th). This is clearly optional and the benefit is gaining a +1 cover save. Still lurking does NOT negate 'scoring unit' status.

The Swarm and Zoanthrope entries both clearly and specifically state that they are "not able to claim objectives, hold table quarters nor count as scoring units" the fact that the Lurk rule does NOT ever include the 3rd point of not counting as scoring units means that it does not negate it.

Thus a gaunt sitting outside of synapse range can hold the objective like any other scoring unit would. Page 90 of the 5th edition rulebook specifically states what a 'scoring unit' this is done to over ride old edition codexes.

it clearly says ALL TROOPS count as scoring units with the following exceptions:
* If it's a vehicle (we have no vehicles, doesnt apply)
* If it has the swarm special rule (like in the case of our very own swarms)
* If it has a special rule specifying it never counts as a scoring unit. (read our codex backwards if you will and you'll find that the ONLY ones that specify as ever being non scoring is the swarm and zoanthrope thus this does NOT apply to gaunts)


I just thought i'd clarify this to everyone who is under the misinterpretation that guants can't hold objectives outside of synapse range. Read the rules as they are and if your opponent disagrees kindly hand him the rulebook and your tyranid codex and tell him to show you exactly where it says that gaunts aren't scoring units.

remember because the codex was written for 4th edition it means that the 5th edition rulebook's rules take precedence as far as what counts and what doesnt unless specified.

Thoughts and Opinions?

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Old 19 Sep 2008, 07:52   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

5th Edition doesn't change anything significant here. Lurking Tyranid Troops may not claim objectives. There is no room for misinterpretation of any kind. GW would need to release a FAQ to remove that reference from the codex, and they have not done so. The 5th Edition rulebook overrides the 4th Edition rulebook. But it doesn't override special rules in the codex unless it does so explicitly, although it may make some rules redundant. It doesn't matter if Gaunts are scoring units or not. If the book says they can't claim objectives when lurking, then they can't claim objectives when lurking.

So Gaunts have to bite the bullet and risk the Leadership test if they want to claim objectives and are out of Synapse. They can still try to take objectives in this manner, but it is much riskier since they may just run away instead.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 08:02   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

The way it reads says to me: if you choose to Lurk you lose scoring status, but gain +1 cover. If you want them to be a Scoring unit and they are outside synapse you must take a LD test, pass it and your good, fail it and you fall back towards synapse just as if you had chosen to move.

Outside of Synapse control Gaunts have 2 choices: Lurk or Move. If you lurk you can still shoot but cannot hold objectives or Table quarters, if you chose to move you have to pass a check. Whether it's meant for 4th or 5th doesn't matter as the rulebook's line of "..a special rule that specifies it never counts.." which I would take means that if your codex says they can't hold it then you can't, even though the gaunts doesn't say NEVER.

Finally I belive they would have FAQ'd the line to change if they wanted the rule to change, as they did this with a number of the rules in the codecies that didn't coincide with 5th edition mechanics.

that would be my 2c.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 11:11   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

Khanaris has it bang on. If you want to gamble and pass that Ld. Test outside of Synapse, you are playing poorly.

Pg. 28 of Codex: Tyranids makes things pretty clear.

- if you are in Synapse, you are operating normally
- if you are outside of Synapse, you test. If you pass that test, you are still a scoring unit. Otherwise you are either falling back (either towards a Synapse creature of off the board) or Lurking. If you are falling back, you cannot be scoring until you rally. If you Lurk, you are not scoring.

Personally, I think that any Tyranid, with the exception of Vanguard organisms, should not work at all unless they are in Synapse range (ie. cannot move, shoot, assault; auto hit if assaulted, etc.)

My advice is don't lose your Synapse network if you want your gaunts to remain scoring. :P
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 16:44   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

Well, first Tyranids only check for Instinctive Behavior at the start of their movement phase. It's entirely possible for you to start your move inside Synapse, and end movement outside of it - but still be able to claim an objective because you wouldn't be affected by Instinctive Behavior until the start of your next movement phase, and if the game ends before that happens, you're perfectly fine and able to capture without being in Synapse.

Secondly, unless I'm mistaken there is nothing in the rules about not being a scoring unit if you are falling back in 5th - unless I missed it somewhere or they FAQ'd it. If that's the case, you could take the Ld check fail it, and be forced to fall back, but if your straight line towards the closest Synapse (or table edge w/o synapse on the board) takes you inside capture range of an objective, then I think you are still considered as capturing if the game ends even if you are outside of Synapse when that happens.

Thirdly, I've always played that Lurking was optional so long as you didn't decide to move at all during that turn, because of the "may" in the "Alternatively the Brood may Lurk". The reason I take this stance, is because my friend and I had a disagreement about whether or not you had to use Bio-plasma if you took it as a bio-morph. The reason for the debate was because in 4th if you had it on say a Carnifex and charged into CC, it was entirely possible to only get into base contact with 1 model of a unit. If that model died to the Bio-plasma attack, you could be left out of base contact with anything else in the unit and be denied the rest of your attacks. So I called GW, and they told me the "may" in that statement was definitely intentional, and that you did not in fact have to take the bio-plasma attack just because you had the bio-morph. So, that says to me it is an option as well with regards to Lurking, in that you could choose to gain +1 to your cover save rather than be able to hold objectives. That also means to me that you could choose to stay stationary and not try to move for any reason but also not gain from the +1 cover in lurking yet still be able to capture table quarters and hold objectives, even if you started your move outside of Synapse. I suppose I could call GW again and ask specifically with regards to this though. Maybe I will.

I wouldn't argue that lurking unit's can score though, that seems pretty certain to be a "no" - meaning if you choose to take that +1 cover to try and survive while outside synapse, no you can't be scoring.

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Old 19 Sep 2008, 18:35   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

you ONLY need to test for movement if you wish to move.

you may CHOOSE to lurk and SHOOT as normal

if you just sit there and do not nothing does not = lurking. Read the actual rule, lurking is a optional. moving is optional. And when you fall back you are still a scoring unit anyway, nowhere does it say that you stop being scoring unit.

Because moving and lurking are optional, that means that you can simply choose not to do neither and just sit there. It would be different if it said you need to do one or the other, but the fact that it says 'IF you want to move' and the other says 'Alternatively you MAY choose to lurk' means that you do NOT have to do either one.

Can anyone please point out to me where exactly it says that you HAVE to do one or the other?

And where it says that you stop being a scoring unit if you just sit there doing nothing?

I think you are adding extra rules to make it make 'sense' to you. But i'd argue that those extra rules make it NOT make sense because if the gaunts are still there on the objective no enemy can come over and pretend there isn't anything there and makes godzilla lists virtually unplayable in 2/3rds of the missions.

And yes the 5th edition rulebook does infact take precedence in it's rulings for missions as it's clearly states what counts and what doesn't. Since when have newer versions of the rulebooks not overriden the codex rules when specifically stated?
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 20:27   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

Simply put, if you lurk you can't claim an objective bottom line. You have a choice to lurk and if you make that choice than you canLt score.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 22:01   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Simply put, if you lurk you can't claim an objective bottom line. You have a choice to lurk and if you make that choice than you canLt score.
Exactly.

As you, Khan, and 77 have all stated.
That's how it works through my reading of the rules.




Oh but guys, calling GW is ineffective. You can get multiple different answers out of the answer/rules team and they aren't always going to back up what they've said.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 22:12   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slave to the Bell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Simply put, if you lurk you can't claim an objective bottom line. You have a choice to lurk and if you make that choice than you canLt score.
Exactly.

As you, Khan, and 77 have all stated.
That's how it works through my reading of the rules.




Oh but guys, calling GW is ineffective. You can get multiple different answers out of the answer/rules team and they aren't always going to back up what they've said.
sounds good as long as we all agree that lurking is a choice. And that the fact is that you can simply choose to NOT lurk outside of synapse and claim the objective.

that's pretty much what I was getting at, like some others here have stated. reading the rules as 'is'
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 22:17   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Gaunts, Synapse and Scoring units is not all one and the same people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slave to the Bell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Simply put, if you lurk you can't claim an objective bottom line. You have a choice to lurk and if you make that choice than you canLt score.
Exactly.

As you, Khan, and 77 have all stated.
That's how it works through my reading of the rules.




Oh but guys, calling GW is ineffective. You can get multiple different answers out of the answer/rules team and they aren't always going to back up what they've said.
sounds good as long as we all agree that lurking is a choice. And that the fact is that you can simply choose to NOT lurk outside of synapse and claim the objective.

that's pretty much what I was getting at, like some others here have stated. reading the rules as 'is'
Sorry but your post(s) essentially saying that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou

Still lurking does NOT negate 'scoring unit' status.

Thus a gaunt sitting outside of synapse range can hold the objective like any other scoring unit would.

I just thought i'd clarify this to everyone who is under the misinterpretation that guants can't hold objectives outside of synapse range.
are still wrong.
Yeah lurking is optional, once you do start though you can't hold objectives. The rulebook is very clear on that.
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