[bebe]

Talking Zilla

There are some standard choices in most Zilla lists.
The Flyrant appears often as the HQ ...
2x TL Devourers, ES, Flesh Hooks, TS, Wings, Warp Field
This is pure nastiness and does the job nicely. It's a
fairly large investment in points but it works well.
It's 12 strength 5 AP 5 shots. give him the strength upgrade.


Sniperfexes are also pretty much set ...
It's targeted by rocket launchers, battle cannons, starcannons,
bright lances, plasma rifles, autocannons, heavy bolters,
bolters, lasrifles, missile pods, shuriken catapults, pulse
rifles, meltas and every other weapon that has it's odds
against you altered by toughness 7 2+ save and the regenerate
to get the lost wounds back....
so sniperfexes are ...
BS, VC, Bonded Exoskeleton, Regenerate, Reinforced Chitin,
ES, EC, Flesh Hook
I don't think thre is too much argument over this
configuration.

But what if you want to include one screamer killer?
Which is better ...
2x ST, AG(I), TS, Flesh Hooks
or
2x ST, AG(WS),TMiasma, Flesh Hooks
You need to fit this fex in your Elite squad to go along with
a couple of dakkafexes ...
2x TL Devourers, ES, Flesh Hooks

+1 I is important.Without +1 it strikes at the same time as
powerfists which means its going to get pasted in CC! TS and
AG(I) are essential on a Screamer Killer. Sure AG(WS) and
TMiasma hit Marines on 3+ but the hidden powerfists
will be your demise. If you are set on the WS upgrade though
you could avoid squads with powerfists. You have 5-6 fexes and
not all will be charged by powerfists. You might even survive
a round against them. Your carnies will be hit on 3s wounded
on 2s. On the upside, how often do you take a wound and if you
use Toxic Miasma you more or less have a WS of 5, which let's
you hit marines on 3+, and if you can a snipe a PowerFist
by having it's wielder in the kill zone. Hitting more is
obviously a good thing. Taking onw wound is worth it as you
"just" have to kill 3 marines to get your points back so
even if they slay your Fex you can kill more of them hitting
on 3s.

Now on to your other choice ... Do we take a Broodlord. Don't
dismiss this option too lightly. He cam seve a good purpose.
The broodlord can be included for a reason... going on a flank
and herding the enemy against the fexes with help from flyrant.
Yes he will be a big target and he is not a cheap inclusion but
Broodlord/w AG +I, EC, Flesh Hooks, Implant Attack, TS
11x Genestealers/w ST, EC, Flesh Hooks
on a flank is very scary. No one wants this within charge range.
This also provides some quick assualt/disruption for your senter.

of course you can use
3 Raveners (talons/claws only ) instead of broodlord

1 Flyrant
2 Dakkafex
1 Screamerfex
3 Raveners (talons/claws only )
2 VC/BS fexes
2 Synapse/Warp Blast 'thropes
fill in troops ....

This would be the zoanthrope configuration
2x Zoanthrope
2x Synapse, Warp blast, Catalyst

Now your another choice would be to add
A tactically placed lictor or 2 purely for the reserve rolls
and to hold up the enemy one more turn so the hordes of
leaping Rippers with Fleet alongside Hormagaunts - another
choice taken to overcome the inherent drawbacks of carnifexes
- can close. Even swarms of scuttling gaunts work well.

We need to be clear on a few issues ...
You need guns because the big guys are slow and escalation
hurts. You also need guns because they're very effective of course.
You need to saturate your opponent. This means getting LoS and range
on all your targets. Raveners, Flyrant and Broodlord can help.
We do not want our Monstrous creatures Isolated and picked off.

I can envision using a second cc Flyrant as well ... you
want a a rock solid center for your army with some
quick assualt/disruption.

I know at low point games they are competitive. In 1500
point games, Zilla nids have consistenly scored in top 3.
In escalation multiwound scoring unit monstrosities rocking
up anywhere along deployment untouched by turn 4 is good. I
hate hearing complaints about how the possibility of arriving
piecemeal works heavily against us.

The main reason people complain that shooty Nidzilla lists
MCs are essentially better tanks. Vehicles are very easy to
kill but while MCs have many of the advantages of vehicles
they don't have as many of the disadvantages. TMCs can
fire multiple weapons, their weapons often have very high
strenth and either a high rate of fire or a blast radius,
just like tanks. However, they can't be stunned, shaken,
have multiple wounds, are very dangerous in CC (although
this isn't always an advantage since they can get locked in
cc), can fire at any visible strength of the weapon.
That's a whole host of advantages that vehicles don't get,
all for about the same cost as a SM tank and you can take as
many as ten. A balanced army just doesn't have enough anti-tank
to combat them. This is their strength - there are a few lists
that can take them comfortably but 'all-comers' lists fare poorly
against them.

[40kenthusiast]

Tyrant: I'm not sure I've ever seen one without the -1 morale power. If you say so its standard, but I'd be much more sanguine about facing that as any power armor team.

Sniperfexes: The nemesis of the sniperfex is the AP 2 Str 9 lascannon, raising its save and toughness doesn't change that. I'm also skeptical about Regenerate's cost effectiveness.

DakkaFexes: like you said, standard.

Zoanthropes: Once again, I've never seen these without the -1 morale power. Demoralizing Zoans are the flyrants posse, giving him sweeping advances. The blast zoan.. I don't think you need the Warp blasts, considering the Sniperfexes are already dropping high str shots from a longer range with more endurance.

Broodlord & max retinue? Madness! He doesn't work with the rest of the list at all. He isn't going to drive the enemies against the fexes, and if he did that would be counter-productive (fexes have long range weapons so they can shoot, ideally they don't CC). He's just going to get pasted, slowing down his stealers so they can't even fleet. In a zilla list the enemy will have 30% of their fire capacity (the dedicated anti-infantry) desperate not to be wasted against the big guys...they will obliterate this unit.

Lictor: He's almost a hundred points of a re-roll for a fex or tyrant. If he actually does anthing himself it is a bonus. Keep in mind that with the firepower thus far described the enemy's armor will work just fine, so they don't need to go near cover, and that an infantry unit's fire which won't scratch a fex will annihilate this guy. I'd leave him at home, but taking one is a defendable position. 2 is starting to erode your point advantage though.

Raveners: Take gargoyles, if you must, better for the points and do basically the same job. The Raveners have a minor version of the Broodlord's malady. They are going to DS and then get shot up by every non-anti-tank weapon in the enemy force. More erosion of your point advantage.

Troops: Classic choice is 2 minimum size ripper swarms. Their role is to get stuck in as fast as possible, maybe tempting some high-strength fire off the flyrant.

Overall Assessment: You are quite correct about the strength of the zilla list. It works for the same reason Mech Eldar/Tau lists work, or Slaanesh Siren lists. Its a point denial list. The lists it loses to can't survive in a balanced environment.

[striogi]

Egad, where do you all get this stuff?

There are some standard choices in most Zilla lists.
The Flyrant appears often as the HQ ...
2x TL Devourers, ES, Flesh Hooks, TS, Wings, Warp Field
This is pure nastiness and does the job nicely. It's a fairly large investment in points but it works well.
It's 12 strength 5 AP 5 shots. give him the strength upgrade.

1. 12 Str 5 AP NOTHING shots. Reroll hit and wound. count on 11 hits and 10 wounds against MEQ per round. only glance light vehicles.
2. all the rest is a good set up, it makes him only 199 points. this is a BARGAIN for powerful HQ units.

@Enthusiast: most people choose warp field over -1 LD because of the 2+ save. this will double the durability against standard light weapons (Str 4 AP 5).

so sniperfexes are ...
BS, VC, Bonded Exoskeleton, Regenerate, Reinforced Chitin, ES, EC, Flesh Hook
I don't think thre is too much argument over this configuration.

Flesh hooks: Unnecessary, but only one point. so no big deal.
+T (bonded exo) going from T6 to T7 effects the following:
any str 3 unit out there (lasguns, normal orks, etc)
Str 5: I can't think of any, but I'm sure there are... some. (wound on 6+ instead of 5+) 16.6% vs 33%
Str 6: Tau light plasma guns (wound on 5+ instead of 4+) 33% vs. 50%
Str 7: Autocannons and some eldar weapons (wound on 4+ instead of 3+) 50% vs 66%
Str 8: Melta/Krak equivalents (wound on 3+ instead of 2+) 66% vs. 83%
Str 9: Lascannons etc (wound on 2+ instead of... oh right. : )
now.. how often of which do you see? the answer of which is ENTIRELY dependent upon your local opponents. Against Tau, IG, and Orks, this is a valuable upgrade. against marines, Eldar etc? not so much.

Regenerate. 1 in 6 chance, per wound taken, to gain 1 wound. now I'm not so much of a math-head to figure it out, but for 30 points (that's almost 2 genestealers, or 3 hgaunts) but it seems to me that this is something you want to put on a monster that is going to see a lot of action... what about that assault godfex? everything else you can sit it in cover and you have high T, 2+ armor, 4+ or 5+ cover, and at least 4 wounds. unless you're facing off with 6+ broadsides or other similar cheesy armies, I find it somewhat unlikely they'll knock down more than 2 of them by the end of the game.

+W (Reinforced Chitin) this one is an excellent choice for ANY heavy fex. it increases their survivability by 25%, making it that much harder to kill one.

my suggestion:
BS, VC, Flesh Hooks, +BS, +SV, +W. only Add +T if you know your local opponents, and it makes sense considering their army selections. Never take it to Tournament. +Str is also one to consider seriously.
that means you're saving 50 points PER MODEL

Broodlord & max retinue? Madness! He doesn't work with the rest of the list at all. He isn't going to drive the enemies against the fexes, and if he did that would be counter-productive (fexes have long range weapons so they can shoot, ideally they don't CC). He's just going to get pasted, slowing down his stealers so they can't even fleet. In a zilla list the enemy will have 30% of their fire capacity (the dedicated anti-infantry) desperate not to be wasted against the big guys...they will obliterate this unit.

I agree with this 100%. furthermore, a full squad will have a hard time infiltrating close to the enemy and will be VERY unlikely to see ANY action (other than shooting casualties) for the entire game. remember: he and his squad can ONLY move 36" in an entire game, if they don't assault (which is as far as normal troops move!) why would you want to start more than half that distance away from your opponent? furthermore you're suggesting sinking a stunning 389 points into a single HQ.. if that's the case why are you balking at the 200 for a flyrant? by the Lords of Kobol, that's almost 1/4 of your TOTAL ARMY at 1500.

Troops: Classic choice is 2 minimum size ripper swarms. Their role is to get stuck in as fast as possible, maybe tempting some high-strength fire off the flyrant.

I've seen those lists, and I've seen them creamed every time. the problem is that rippers are way to vulnerable. T3? and immunity to Instant Death doesn't apply? anything str 6 and up kills them. worse, the vulnerable to blasts is doubled before ID is applied. so a single ordnance cannon hit can wipe out 10 or more ripper bases easily. considering you're suggesting they are 20 points each, that's an expensive way to go. much better to use spine gaunts at 5 points per model or other cheap gaunt species.


~at this point I give up, because there's too much here for me to respond to at once.~

[bebe]

Nice to hear from you striogi - well your suggestions are all viable. Really apart from the Broodlord ( note I asked if it might be feasible ) which I just postulated on we are on the same page. I'm not sure of the ' Egad, where do you all get this stuff? ' comment, lol. But I'll let that pass.
The thread was to initaite discussion and see what makes sense today.
Here is the problem with Zilla lists as I see them ...
The center is rock hard as we know. Rippers add little or nothing to a list. They're just a mandatory troop filler choice. A gaunt swarm (or at least a mix of leaping lizards and gaunts) is as you said better.
What I haven't seen is an optimized list yet -
Do we use Raveners, Lictors, ' Stealers, Zoanthropes? Now I've had success wuith 'thropes and feel comfortable including them.
I would not add Gargoyles (how does this fiit with a Nid list?) -its just a stall tactic?
We need some fast assault and disruption, i grant you, as that is the weakness of NidZilla. But ' goyles seem expensive at the cost. I'm looking to see what people are playing and why.

[Gada Mazaha]

Originally Posted by bebe

Do we use Raveners, Lictors, ' Stealers, Zoanthropes? Now I've had success wuith 'thropes and feel comfortable including them.

I see Raveners as a very viable choice in Godzilla lists. Zoanthropes and Lictors I'm going to generally say no, as they take away from your ability to take more MC's, and the more of those the more effective your list is. Zoanthropes don't really bring much to the table you don't already have, with the exception of that nice anti-marine blast.

Originally Posted by bebe

I would not add Gargoyles (how does this fiit with a Nid list?) -its just a stall tactic?
We need some fast assault and disruption, i grant you, as that is the weakness of NidZilla. But ' goyles seem expensive at the cost. I'm looking to see what people are playing and why.

Gargoyles over Raveners? What a joke! Raveners all the way. They are cheaper, hit harder in CC, capable of dealing with tanks and artillery, where as Gargoyles aren't. Gargoyle shave nice numbers, but eat up points that can easily be spent elsewhere. What Godzilla lists need, the Ravener provides. Fast, disruptive, annoying.

[striogi]

sorry for the overreaction. it just sounded very absolutist.

anyways. if you're looking for discussion, ok.. you got it.. >

as you said, the army core needs to be a solid rock that the enemy can push against but not really break. I consider it necessary to have a screen and a counter assault force as part of that "rock" to me this is some sort of shooty gaunt, and then the counterassault should be nearby Hgaunts, raveners, or genestealers (I lean more towards stealers, myself. I feel they play an excellent mid-field game.)

which direction does the rest of the army go?

I feel this depends greatly upon your preferences, playing style and favored units. we can argue over Hgaunts, raveners or gargoyles till we're blue in the face.... (doh... tau) but the long and the short of it is that a fast attack of some sort is needed. not only to support the flyrant, but also to (as you said) disrupt the enemy. which way do you go? Gargoyles have several advantages over raveners, and vice versa:

Raveners have 12" leaping charge which keeps them handily out of shooting range.
Raveners have rending claws.
Raveners have more attacks per model
Raveners have better chances of taking down land-based vehicles.

Gargoyles have a 12" jump which allows them to avoid ugly terrain and affords better maneuverability.
Gargoyles have more wounds per point
Gargoyles have more attacks per point
Gargoyles have higher initiative with 1 AP 5 shot and 1 bioplasma attack
Gargoyles have better chances of taking down skimmers.

and just for fun:
Hgaunts have the same move as raveners.
Hgaunts have even more wounds per point (than gargoyles)
Hgaunts have slightly fewer attacks per point (than gargoyles)
Hgaunts have little (or no) chance of taking down vehicles
Hgaunts have more focused/standardized attacks than gargoyles.

(not sure where Gada Mazaha is getting "Raveners are cheaper"...)

as for lictors/zoeys:
both have their place in a nidzilla list. the value of the lictor somewhat in the reroll. but if I'm taking hgaunts as support, then I'm taking lictors too, primarily for the feeder tendrils!
as for zoanthropes, they can be an excellent choice for additional high power shots AND synapse. remember that Carnifexes suffer from Instinctive Behavior as well. also, they can be an excellent node to hold the gaunt screen in place. you're also getting 3 high powered shots that can aim at different targets for the slot of one heavy fex that can only shoot at one target at a time.

[Gada Mazaha]

Originally Posted by striogi

(not sure where Gada Mazaha is getting "Raveners are cheaper"...)

The minimum squad size is one model. With Scything Talons and Rending Claws, that's 40 points. The minimum squad size of a Gargoyle brood is 8. That's 96 Points. I could get 2 Raveners for that price, and make them separate squads. They are always scoring(can't be below half with only 2 wounds ), lone units that are more deadly than then appear to be to any enemy who hasn't seen them used right before.

My point is Raveners take up less points, seem less threatening, and can harass better than Gargoyles can.

[striogi]

Originally Posted by Gada Mazaha

The minimum squad size is one model. With Scything Talons and Rending Claws, that's 40 points. The minimum squad size of a Gargoyle brood is 8. That's 96 Points. I could get 2 Raveners for that price, and make them separate squads. They are always scoring(can't be below half with only 2 wounds ), lone units that are more deadly than then appear to be to any enemy who hasn't seen them used right before.

My point is Raveners take up less points, seem less threatening, and can harass better than Gargoyles can.

fair enough, and that's excellent for cheap objective squatting and an easy boost to pre-existing assault units. However, I'm talking more in the context of stand-alone units that can be used as an interceptor or primary assault unit.

with gargoyles:
you don't have to worry about instant death,
you get 8 wounds compared to 4,
you get 8 fleshborer (str 4 AP 5) shots, 8 bioplasma (str 4, init 8), and 16 assault attacks
compared to 2 deathspitter shots, and 12 rending assault attacks.

I won't deny rending raveners are superior in assault:
Ravener assault: 2 rending hits + 6 regular hits; 2 rending wounds +3 normal wounds; 3 failed saves (against MEQ)
Gargoyle assault: 4 bioplasma hits +8 regular hits; 2 bioplasma wounds +2.66 regular wounds ; 1.54 failed saves

however, there are some things to take into count:
1. Gargoyles have superior staying power than raveners
2. if you include the shooting, Gargoyles generally become superior in wound output
3. Gargoyles are much more effective against light infantry while raveners are superior against heavy infantry.
4. everything counts in large amounts: one doesn't field 8 gargoyles. as with all gaunts, people field 12+ if you want it to be truly effective, which is roughly equivalent to 3x raveners.

[Gada Mazaha]

With Gargoyles, you're looking at less toughness and strength. I do agree with many of your points for Gargoyles, but in a Godzilla list, they don't quite fit the niche like the Raveners do. That's why I believe, especially in this case, Raveners are superior.

[sarnas]

Hey if were taling NidZilla gargoyles arn't exactly... GOOODZILLLA! Raverners arn't as much as tyrants and such, but are bigger then a man at least.