[alcibiates]

Well, as I was working on a list, I realized that for the first time in a long time, I had an HQ slot open, so it actually came down to a debate in my head for a Tyrant or a Carnifex for anti-skimmer detail. So it made me think: Which is statistically better, a Tyrant’s Venom Cannon or a Carnifex’s Venom Cannon?

[announcer voice]Prepare the mathhammer machine!!

Sooo…. Let’s get crackin’. First thing I’d like to point out, there are no AV14 skimmers, so I’m not doing the math for it. Go cry your eyes out if you like.

These are the models I’m comparing:
Tyrant with Venom Cannon, (random weapon), Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs @ 137+weapon
Carnifex with Venom Cannon, (random weapon), Enhanced Senses @ 128+weapon

So we get 2 hits with the Tyrant and 1 hit with the Carnifex. Easy enough!

Tyrant’s Venom Cannon:
AV10: 1.67 Glancing Hits
AV11: 1.33 Glancing Hits
AV12: 1.00 Glancing Hits
AV13: .667 Glancing Hits

Carnifex Venom Cannon:
AV10: 1.00 Glancing Hits
AV11: 1.00 Glancing Hits
AV12: .833 Glancing Hits
AV13: .667 Glancing Hits

The number kind of threw me for a loop, so I thought I’d throw them up here for y’all to see!

[Kiznti]

Interesting... so you'd advocate taking a Hive Tyrant if facing skimmer-heavy armys, like Tau or Eldar?

Also, I belive that the Necron monolith is a AV14 skimmer, so you may have to do the math on that one anyways.

[alcibiates]

I don't think you're going to have to worry about killing too many 'Liths. I generally just let them be and phase out the rest of his army. It's hard to find a 'Nid army that can't make quick work of a Necron army.

But, yes, I would say a Hive Tyrant over a Carnifex. The numbers don't lie... You can always combine the Venom Cannon with a set of devourers for av11/10 armor, as well. Five more hits should buy you an extra glance.

[Howloutloud]

But wouldn't you be better off with both? At least thats what I'm planning to do with my army. Actually make that 2 of the tyrant and 2 of the carnifex (with the obligatory barbed strangler of course)

Otherwise an interesting read.

[alcibiates]

Originally Posted by Howloutloud

But wouldn't you be better off with both?

It's more of a "I can only afford one" kind of thing.

[Traviper]

awesome demonstration, and just at the right moment when I am going to face Taus in a cityfight. I presume the darns blue xenos will field lot of skimmers.

I was going to the carni side, but you convinced me!

Another question: what about a biovore, or zoanthrope/warp blast in this maths?

1xBiovore (acid mine) @ 55pts
Direct hit 0.3333, rear armor, 2d6+3
rear armor 10: 0,19 Glancing hits

Zoanthrope, warp blast @55 pts
0.91 ld test passed, 0.45 hit
AV10: 0.45 Glancing Hits
AV11: 0.45 Glancing Hits
AV12: .375 Glancing Hits
AV13: .300 Glancing Hits

Three zoanthropes, warp blast @165pts
AV10: 1.35 Glancing Hits
AV11: 1.35 Glancing Hits
AV12: 1.25 Glancing Hits
AV13: .9 Glancing Hits

3 zoanthropes are then better than a hive tyrant, only drawback is range (24' only)

Oh and one more!

deep striking acid spore mine!@15pts
Direct hit 0.3333, rear armor, 2d6+3
rear armor 10: 0,19 Glancing hits

ok, not really effective, but so fun and fluffy

[77]

Yea, people are actually considering spore mines ;D

Depending on the skimmer (ie. open top) you will get an automatic glancing hit (no decimals...) with toxin mines. And since it is open top, you get two instead of just one.

Trouble is that I think what Alcibiates is getting at are skimmers that are not open top and/or are tanks (Tau, Eldar, SM Speeders, etc.). In those cases, I would stick to the original recommendations.

If you are facing Dark Eldar or Tau with Piranha, Toxin mines are the way to go.

[alcibiates]

The problem with mines is trying to get them to hit... mines would have to be about three times as effective as their counterpart to be worth it... Biovores would be great in cityfight, but in normal 40k they just aren't the best. With zoans...

[akthomas89]

I like this, except for the fact that the problem of what the Tyrant's second weapon should be arises. A barbed strangler on the carnifex is what makes him more effective at tank and skimmer killing, however a strangler on a tyrant doesn't compliment the venom cannon at all.

Close Combat weapon symbiotes are generally frowned upon when taken in tandem with a ranged weapon symbiote. But what really helps a hive tyrant in the tank killing role? And this isn't a rhetorical question, since it pertains to the topic, I'd really like to know opinions (alcibiates especially) on the best secondary weapon.

I'm thinking that a deathspitter may be viable in this case. It provides a fourth shot a nearly the same strength. It offers accuracy, being twin-linked. And it allows this tyrant to actually do some damage to masses of infantry. The other idea is to twin-link the venom cannon, however this is ridiculously expensive and doesn't really add much effectiveness when the tyrant should already be hitting two thirds of the time.

[alcibiates]

onders for a few moments:
...
...
...

Well, the way I use my Tyrant isn't to take down bigger tanks, it's to take out skimmers and the like. If I am trying to take out a tank, I relegate that to my Zoanthropes or my Genestealers or something else with rending. It's really about concentrating what is good at what. Too many players who play nids forget that their army functions as a whole, not a few separate units that happen to be on the same table.

Generally what I would look for from my tyrant is to drop a skimmer transport and then use his Barbed Strangler(Yes I advocate the BS) to shoot the troops pouring out of the transport into a nice, confined area.

Behind that I would say a Deathspitter because of the higher strength to hopefully get a extra hit in(doubtful)

Behind that, probably a devourer to take care of some close-in troops.

Behind that... Uhh, why didn't you pick one of those three? In my opinon the barbed strangler is way out front because it will help with troops as well as messing up transports pretty bad, and stands a vague chance of hurting an av10/11.