[IVEATCH]

Hello Nid Players....

I've actually started working on my Nid army again after a hiatus. This is a post that I (and others who are duly noted) have written over on the Ork forum. I have also posted it here for two reasons. Number one, I'd appreciate a Peer review by Tyranid Players. Secondly, it is possible to reverse engineer this post, so advice given to my fellow Ork players can be used to help Nid Players. Most of the advice is simple (Hey... We're Ork Players after all : ). Some of it is obvious (Use Burnas against da little Bugeyez). But hopefully, everybody will glean a good bit of info or two. This is not a `Nay Nay - Bugz iz Bad - Orkz iz Gud' post. Hopefully it will be both a fun and entertaining read to those of you who haven't seen it before.

Very Best,

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This is the first of a planned series of `Orks Vs.' posts. Of course, truth be told, Orks verse everybody and everything in 40K, even other Orks! The purpose of the posts is to point out helpful tips to some of the newer players in dealing with some tabletop Nemesis that has them stymied. Hopefully, even the veteran players may pick up a helpful tip or two!! The first of the Versus series deals with that great new Battle Bash going on with the Orks of Octavius and the Tyranids. First off, a great thanks to Inquisitor Kryptman for bringing this strong new enemy to us. To quote the mighty Warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thrakka, "Good Enemies iz `ard to find"!

ORKS VERSUS TYRANIDS

"Bugeyez! Dey iz everywherez. So listen upz!" Quote from Nob `Eadbasherz to his new Boyz in his mob.

Orks keep things simple. Since this tutorial is directed at Ork players, we won't ruin a good thing .

Part A: DA BIG UNZ

Yes, the Godzilla squads are out there. The new Carnifex models and the potential of Stat lines on such things like a Toughness of seven, five wounds, six attacks with an armour save of two plus, make for one mean model. Add the fact that the new Carnifex model just released by GW does look cool, then you'll probably be seeing more than a few of these monsters. Now I have read lamentations from Nid players on how they are disappointed on the survivability of close assault Carnifexs. They seem to get blasted before they get to where they are walking. I can see this being an issue with Imperial Guard, Tau, Dark Angels, Iron Warriors and Eldar (among others). We Ork players, however, don't really have a whole lot of Non-Looted long range fire support choices. Lets look at some of the Ork weapon choices for bringing down a decked out Fex.

ARTILLERY:KANNON/ZZAP/LOBBA

Of all the Ork artillery, the Ork Kannon firing a shell has the best range and strength combination. Provided one hits the target (always an iffy affair with Orks) you'll be wounding on a 2+ or 3+ depending on the Carnies toughness of either a six or seven. That’s not bad odds. It is the possible armour save of 2+ on an up-armoured Carnifex that can goof up an Ork Kannon, however. That 2+ save beats the Kannon's AP and this becomes a long shot with the Kannon. That Space Marine Terminator armour save of 2+ is a fly in the ointment on this one. Ork Kannon are only really effective against Carnifex's without the extra Armour of the extended carapace.

Zzaps are cool, if unpredictable weapons. They are about as close as the new edition Orks get to the old Second Edition Shock Attack Guns that used to hurl Grots temporarily through the Warp and into the middle of their target. Just imagine a warp crazed Grot suddenly appearing right next to you at this moment. No doubt it would start typing bad things about other members of this forum, getting you into no end of trouble with the Admin here at Tau Online. This would, at least, be an interesting excuse for such unacceptable behavior .

Zzaps do have a high enough AP to defeat the Carnifex that has extra armour, plus it has the advantage of always hitting. This eliminates the low Ork Ballistic Skill from the equation. The wild card with Zzap Gunz is their variable strength. They are also of a much shorter range then Ork Kannon. If your going to take on a `SuperFex' try to take at least two (if not three) Zzap gunz. This will greatly improve your odds in chewing through the multiple wounds of a Carnifex before it gets to you.

Lobbas are of too low an AP and Strength to be effective against large Tyranid models. It is best to direct these at the smaller Nids.

OTHER ORK SHOOTY WEAPONS OF NOTE:

Rokkit Launchas are a Space Marine Killer because of their AP. They are NOT Space Marine Terminator killers, however. This same distinction holds against a Carnifex with or without the extended carapace. Using Rokkits against an up armoured Carnifex is an act of desperation. Better to use them elsewhere. Pound away with Rokkits, however, on a Fex with its normal armour save.
NOTE: captainwhizz makes a good point in the next post. about using your Rokkits on a 2+ Armour Save Carnifex if no other targets are available. He is correct in writing that the `ones will appear' if the Nid player has to roll enough dice.

Another excellent point made by the good captain is the use of Flash Gitz with the Blasta Kustom option. It IS a bit dicey letting a Carnifex get into effective range of this Kustom upgrade, but hey - at least the results will be interesting - one way or another!

Big Shootas are in the same category as Lobbas. Best to take out smaller Bugeyez with these. Burnas are in the same Shooty category slot with Big Shootas.

Of course one must mention that invention of Mad Mekboyz everywhere, the Kustom Mega Blasta. Using the Small Blast template with an AP of 2, this is one will wound even a toughened Carnifex if it hits!!

Looted weapons are one shooty answer to large rampaging Carnifexi. Meltaguns, Plasma Guns and Lascannons are among the better choices. Autocannons aren't bad but you'll still have either 3+ or 2+ Carnifex armour saves to deal with.

Looted vehicles like the Leman Russ, Demolisher and Basilisk can be armed with weapons like the Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon and Earthshaker Cannon that can all put dents into a Carnifex (particularly, the Demolisher Cannon).

ASSAULTING A CARNIFEX: POWER KLAWS

Now this is something that can get through! Nobs armed with Power Klaws are the true Ork answer to these SuperBugs. A Power Klaw doubles the strength of its user. In addition it ignores armour saves because of its status as a Power weapon. An Ork Nob will do well against the Carnifex with one important caveat. They MUST be supported by other Orks during assault. Don't forget that although the Carnifex is slower then the Orks with a lower initiative (even with Biomorph help), the Power Klaw is a power weapon and hence goes last! You'll need the other Orks up close even though they may not be able to do much, to act as fodder for taking wounds.
Note: Redbeard has pointed out that my original inclusion of a Power Klaw armed Warboss being used against an Assault Carnifex was wrong. As an Independent Character, it can be targeted with allocated attacks by the Carnifex.

Not all Orks are helpless up close. Ork Skarboyz will hit with about half their blows and will wound on rolls of a 6. Of course the Carnie still gets its armour saves, but hey, if he rolls for 15 Choppa wounds (which raise the minimum armour save number from the 2 or 3+ to a 4+), then you may see some good results.

Standard Ork Slugga Boyz are still effective in assault against Carnifexi that don't have any Biomorph additions that raise their Toughness. A carnifex with standard Toughness can still feel the pain if enough Choppa blows are rained on it!

ASAULTING A CARNIFEX: GIANT SQUIGGOTHS

This is one way to fight fire with fire! This is one of those rarely seen match-ups that we all want to see! The stat lines between the two are remarkably similar, with only a difference of one point between them on Wounds, Initiative and Attacks. The Carnifex does handily beat the Massive Squiggoth in the Weapon Skill, Armour Save and Leadership categories. Various Biomorphs does give a decked out Carnie a big advantage, particularly with the initiative being in its' favour. Having an armour save that can be twice as effective as the Squiggoth is another tremendous superiority.

They are also pretty close in point value as well. It would be a fierce match, but the Massive Squiggoth would have to get some sort of shooting in prior to Assault to stand an even chance in my opinion.

ASSUALTING A CARNIFEX: ORK DREADNOUGHTS AND KILLA KANS

Two words.... DO IT! The twin Strength 10 Power Klaws of the Dread and the single strength 10 Killa Kan Power Klaw are no brainers (and thus perfect for Orks ). I can almost guarantee that a 180 point Fex, going up against 3 Killa Kans is in trouble.
NOTE: Redbeard has correctly written the following on this matter.
Assaulting with Killa Kans. The Kans aren't using Powerfists, per se, but rather, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (Page 73 of the Fourth Edition Codex). They therefore strike at initiative. Against a basic Carnifex without the Initiative upgrade, that means the Kans all strike before the Fex - and even if it has the initiative upgrade, they strike simultaneously. Fex's cannot get an invulnerable save, and even with the increased toughness upgrade, you're still hitting on threes and wounding on twos, with no save possible. One Mob of three Kans is going to make nine attacks, score six hits and put five wounds on a Fex - enough to kill one that has the extra wound upgrade even.

HIVE TYRANTS:

Many of the pointers given for the Carnifex also apply to the Hive Tyrant as well. The Stat lines match up fairly close, with the Hive Tyrant being weaker in strength by nearly 50% from the Carnifex. The Tyrant does have a substantial improvement in Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and number of base attacks. The initiative rating for the Tyrant is a several fold increase from the Fex. There is no chance of an Ork model ever beating the initiative of the Tyrant and going first in assault (unless the Orks are attacked while in cover) . What to do? You can either shoot the snot out of it, or go for death by Choppa. If you can get a 20 strong Ork Mob in base to base with a Power Klaw equipped Nob, you have a real good chance in taking it (the Tyrant) down.

This can be greatly complicated by the addition of Tyrant Guards in a Retinue with the Hive Tyrant. A Tyrant can bring up to three of these monsters. They have a stat line that matches, or is superior to (with the exception on the number of wounds and base attacks) the standard Ork Codex Warboss. And the Tyrant Guards cost about a third less! This can really make getting the Hive Tyrant tough. All we can do is `Dakka N Choppa' to get through.

Winged Tyrants are very tough because of their speed. They can basically choose when and where they'll hit. Thank goodness a winged Tyrant can't have a Tyrant Guard Retinue and the winged Tyrants are limited to one per army. They can be taken down with a rain of Choppa blows, however, just like its' ground dwelling cousin.

BROODLORD:

Technically, this is not a true Godzilla Squad Tyranid monster. But since it is an independent character, it is worthy of being included here.

What about a match up between a 20 strong mob of Skarboyz (led by a Power Klaw wielding Nob) with two Big Shootas, up against a Broodlord and 11 Scything Talon armed Genestealers? Point cost is similar, roughly 290 points on the Nid side versus 299 points for the Orks. Stat lines between the Skarboyz and Genestealers are the same save for Weapon Skill and Initiative, the Nids handily win out with these. What would be the likely outcome? The high Genestealer Initiative makes all the difference. Their speed with Flight of Claw also makes it likely that they will get the charge. Combine these two elements, the high Initiative AND a charge and even with the Big Shootas taking out one or two Genestealers on the way in, you will probably lose over half of the Orks in the first phase of assault. By the time all is said and done, you'll see the Broodlord and a remaining Genestealer progressing on to the next mob, your Skarboyz (w Nob) will be tabletop history. All one can do is try to deny the Genestealers the Charge. In doing this with our Skarboyz/Genestealer match up, your more likely to get a dead heat between the two groups with either a battered Nob or the Broodlord being the remaining model left.

A Broodlord with a full Genestealer Brood with it is a real Buzzsaw to tangle with in Assault. They aren't quite as bad as assaulting a full Kroot Carnivore Squad in cover, but pretty darned close! Use a Basilisk against them or better yet, a Skorcha Buggy of Doom armed with a Skorcha and Spikes N Blades. The Spikes N Blades will mirror back any failed attacks by the Genestealers. With the Genestealers rending claws, the Warbuggy of Doom is unlikely to survive. It IS a point effective way of taking out a good chunk of the Stealers, however.

SHOOTY GODZILLA SQUADS:
From what I've seen and read, this is one of the tougher armies for Orks to deal with. Ork Speed Freaks and Kult Of Speed seem to work best for an Ork player against them. There seems to be no Footsloggin' or Feral answer that I've seen or read. I may post something up on Da Waaagh Website and see what sort of answers come in.
Note: A few comments made by posters over at Da Waaagh website include the following...
RampagingRavener wrote "The best way to counter this (heavy Godzilla shooting) is to try and take as many Mekboyz with Kustom Force as possible". Blackbone wrote "The Dakka approach can also work for Orks! Limit their assault phase by placing `throwaway' fast vehicles about 2 to 3 inches away from them. Remember, opponents cannot end their move within one inch of your models. The reason you start them so close is so they can't take their `free' assault move towards your blocking model. The trick is to time this event to fall during his turn. When he tries to move around your blocking vehicle, you start your turn by gleefully lighting him up!". Gashbad wrote the following advise "Multiple big Nids versus one mob can make a mess of the Mob, try to separate them. Also remember, most Godzilla armies are SLOW. If you are playing a mission game other than Seek and Destroy, or Take and Hold, you can take a MASSIVE advantage of this fact.

Part B: DA MIDDLE UNZ

Tyranid Warrior models are what attracted me into collecting a Tyranid army. Cool models and a neat concept. Oh if only we Ork players could use Ork Nobs in independent units outside of a Warboss Retinue or Mob Leader. Stat lines run identical in the first five of nine model characteristics between an Ork Nob and a Nid Warrior. Two of the last four characteristics go in favour of the Warrior by a point. Only in leadership does the Warrior greatly outpace the Nob. This IS to expected from a Tyranid Synapse creature. The point cost delta between a standard Nob armed with a Slugga and Choppa and a Warrior equipped with Rending Claws and Scything talons is only a Single point (23 vs. 24). Since Tyranid Warriors can count as both an HQ choice and an Elite Choice one could take up to 45 of them. The cost would be over a thousand points. I haven't seen one of these types of army lists, only heard of them.

AP4 weaponry (or better) would be a good answer. Warriors do not have access to any Biomorphs that increase Toughness. Unfortunately, the only true Ork built weapons that qualify are the Skorcha (short ranged flame template), Mega Blasta and Ork Rokkits. Using the Blasta Option on some Flash Gitz can kick the AP up enough on a Shoota or Slugga to insta kill levels, but with effective ranges of 12" or less, the Warriors are getting a might close .

Looted weapons, Particularly the Heavy Bolter and AutoCannon, are both good Warrior Hunters. In addition, the Looted Hellhound, with its AP4 Inferno Cannon, is about the most effective Warrior Killer that the Orks can lay their paws on.

LICTORS, RAVENERS AND OTHER THINGS THAT GO BUMP IN THE NIGHT:
No See Ums! We Ork players hate um, how unOrky can one get? Of course Ork Kommados are okay, right? Both of these units can be deployed using Deep Strike rules. Even more frustrating is the Lictors ability to hit and run. Also Raveners are just so darned fast!

One answer to these stalking/slithering brutes is two equip a couple of Wartrakks with Mega Blastas! Between the fast movement of the Wartrakk, and the 24.0" range of the Mega Blasta, you should be able to react to any sudden appearance of unexpected company. Yes, you are relying on the mundane Ork Ballistic skill to hit, that's why you have two Mega Blastas! If you DO hit, it's an insta kill! Raveners are a bit tougher to bring down because their can be up to three in a Brood. Twin Linked Rokkit Launchas are also a good insta-Kill choice when used by Wartrakks!

ZOANS:
A weird Tyranid unit with enough bizarre Hive Mind Powers to easily allow it to credibly apply for inclusion as some apparition of the Chaos Gods. Even with the same armour save as a Space Marine Terminator, these strange models are still vulnerable to Mega Blastas. Since it is a Synapse Creature, it is a good idea to target these things early. This is particularly true if the Tyranid player has been careless enough not to have any back-up Synapse creatures close by. Choppas can also do a number on these things.

BIOVORES:
Without question, these are the second most annoying Tyranid unit. This is because the little blighters can produce the single most irritating Tyranid unit.... Spore Mines! These floating Stink-bombs are just plain maddening! They always seem to have a proclivity for drifting straight towards the nearest Kustom Force Field equipped Mek Boy and exploding inside the six inch protective radius of the KFF. I KNOW that its random, but it almost seems intentional, I swear. Counter battery fire is called for, Lobbas, Basilisks, Kannons (firing Frag) and Looted Mortars will all do the trick to keep this nasty and wicked little Toad from belching forth its' offensive cargo and raising a stink from one side of the tabletop to the other.

Part C: DA LITTLE UNZ
How many Gaunts does it take to screw in a Light Bulb? Answer... As many as it takes, there's always more! Their fast, their numerous and their more ornery than a two year old!

Hormagaunts are Gaunts on steroids and just as aggravating.

Ripper Swarms got ya down?

There is a simple Ork answer.... Burnas and Skorchas, lots and lots of Burnas and Skorchas. In fact, the more the merrier! to heck with roasting chestnuts by the fire, toast a ripper swarm instead! In fact, any weapon that uses a template, Large Blast, Large Ord, small Blast and Flame is a good pick in carpeting these vermin.

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I hope and trust that this missive has been of help!

Very Best Regards,

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

Wow, I hope you got karma for typing all that.

Just a couple of things though, first of all genestealers with a broodlord can infiltrate but can't fleet.

Biovores aren't that effective anymore due to the fact that they now all use the small blast rules and the change in the small blast rules.

You forgot one of the best ways of getting rid of a Carnifex. Assaulting : choppas!!

Apart from that I think you've done a very good job here, you should be really proud fo this research and tactica.

[HiveMined]

Originally Posted by Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Wow, I hope you got karma for typing all that.

Yeah, he did. :P

:P Was just about to come over to the Ork forum and put in my two cents in that post IVEATCH. But nooooo...you just had to come over to my forum, didn't you?

Will post more when it's not 10 past midnight and when I'm not drunk.

[IVEATCH]

That IS an interesting point on the Broodlord/Genestealers combo not being able to fleet. Thanks for bringing that up, Scout Sergeant. I'm new to Nids so I have a learning curve to climb.

And yes... the Biovores of the old Third Edition Codex have now been turned into the Nid version of an Ork Lobba battery. But I STILLLLL.... hate Stink-Bombs :-X !

And Phage.... We Ork players really like your forum. Tyranids are a distinguished member of the 40K club that believes in ASSAULT ASSAULT ASSAULT instead of shoot shoot shoot. One can almost see the difference in personality types of the players that go either of these two routes. Shootist tend to be cautious, calculating and protective. The ASSAULT crowd is a bit more reckless and outgoing. Of course there are players that seem to do both well, these are generally the players that one has the better games with.

This is great, please point out any factual gaffs or misinterpretations, it helps me learn as well.

Very Best,

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

Originally Posted by IVEATCH

That IS an interesting point on the Broodlord/Genestealers combo not being able to fleet. Thanks for bringing that up, Scout Sergeant. I'm new to Nids so I have a learning curve to climb.

And yes... the Biovores of the old Third Edition Codex have now been turned into the Nid version of an Ork Lobba battery. But I STILLLLL.... hate Stink-Bombs :-X !

And Phage.... We Ork players really like your forum. Tyranids are a distinguished member of the 40K club that believes in ASSAULT ASSAULT ASSAULT instead of shoot shoot shoot. One can almost see the difference in personality types of the players that go either of these two routes. Shootist tend to be cautious, calculating and protective. The ASSAULT crowd is a bit more reckless and outgoing. Of course there are players that seem to do both well, these are generally the players that one has the better games with.

This is great, please point out any factual gaffs or misinterpretations, it helps me learn as well.

Very Best,

I know about the whole learning curve with the 'Nids, I started with them, so that was fun.

Also you're spot on with the interpretation of player's behaviour. I can't see any other misinterpretations/mistakes in your posts. But if you want to know anything just post a question or PM me.

[Gada Mazaha]

Originally Posted by Scout Sergeant Mkoll

You forgot one of the best ways of getting rid of a Carnifex. Assaulting : choppas!!

That doesn't work if the carnifex is toughness 7 though. All those strength 3 attacks gone to waste...What a shame.

Very good job, though I have yet to play a compelling Ork list. They always managed to kill the gaunts, and the Hive Tyrant and Fexes would get there and chew everything up.

[HiveMined]

Originally Posted by IVEATCH

And Phage.... We Ork players really like your forum. Tyranids are a distinguished member of the 40K club that believes in ASSAULT ASSAULT ASSAULT instead of shoot shoot shoot. One can almost see the difference in personality types of the players that go either of these two routes. Shootist tend to be cautious, calculating and protective. The ASSAULT crowd is a bit more reckless and outgoing. Of course there are players that seem to do both well, these are generally the players that one has the better games with.

This is great, please point out any factual gaffs or misinterpretations, it helps me learn as well.

Very Best,

I'm of the view that it's a game, I don't really care, I'm out to have fun, so let's just smash the hell out of each others armies.