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Some 'mathhammer' ;)
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 22:10   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Some 'mathhammer' ;)

Please, if you're one of those that does not like the concept of 'mathhammer', don't bother telling us how useless this thread is. If you have anything construtive or anything to add, feel free to reply!

'Greetings, fellow Shas of the Tau Empire! Here follow some statistics done by O'lan'non:'

Mathhammer: (Shas'el crisis vs T4, 3+ saves)

Note: kills per point are the kills divided on the points. It's then been summarized and divided on the different ranges, to give the average 'kill-ratio' of a shas'el, given an equal number of the ranges listed. (eg, shooting twice at 12", 24" and 25-36" for number 1). I've just taken into account some of the weapon configs available, as doing all would be a horrendous lot of work! I hope you can enjoy your reading, and if you've got something to add etc, please do! Anyway, here goes:

1 Shas'el, plasma rifle, missile pod, MT:
12" 1.48 kills (0.0174)
24" 0.926 kills (0.01089)
25-36" 0.37 kills (0.00435)
per point (85): 0.03264/3= 0.01088

2 Shas'el, TL plasma/missile, HW MT:
12" 1.85 kills (0.01887)
24" 1.111 kills (0.01133)
25-36" 0.37 kills (0.00435)
per point (98): 0.03455/3= 0.01151

3 Shas'el, plasma, TL missile, HW MT:
12" 1.6049 kills (0.016545)
24" 1.049 kills (0.01081)
25-36" 0.4938 kills (0.00509)
per point (97): 0.03244/3= 0.0108

4 Shas'el, plasma, fusion, MT
12" 1.667 kills (0.02008)
24" 0.55 kills (0.00669)
per point (83): 0.02677/2=0.013335

5 Shas'el, TL plasma, fusion, MT
12" 2.0370 kills (0.02121)
24" 0.7407 kills (0.00716)
per point (96): 0.0289/2=0.0144

6 Shas'el, TL plasma, flamer
12" 1.48 kills (0.0185)
24" 0.7407 kills (0.00925)
per point (80): 0.02775/2=0.013879

So, basically it covers fireknives and firelances (helios), with a single burning eye for comparison purposes.

Also bear in mind that this is simply vs T4, 3+ saves, and the stats will change drastically when the statistics change, for instance simply by increasing toughness or armour save by 1.
I'm wondering if I'm to do this in excel, maybe make a big chart where you can have 2 variables, x being opponents toughness and y being armour save. This way, you can plot in the attacker and defender stats, and have the statistical chance of killing him! Any thoughts?
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 23:11   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

*Gets Peter Gabriel music in his head* "I like see......Mathhammer..." Unh!

Anyways, nice stats. This stuff generally confuses me, but I understand it enough it's usefull. The Excel doc. would be very useful! (don't ask me to do it)
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Old 14 Sep 2005, 23:20   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

I do have an idea in mind, (excel), perhaps I'll start this weekend Also, if it gets completed, would it be worth a 'sticky' someplace?
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 10:54   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

While i'm not in favour of basing al's on this 'mathhammer' I do understand its uses.

What would be good is that excel document with other variances such as cover etc.. that way the maths could actually be useful as well as interesting

It wouldn't be hard to set up that ss however it would take a while. In fact if you don't do it I could see if one of my friends can, he's also quite into the statistical probabilities in his army and would probably love to waste time at work doing it lol.
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 15:35   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

While I encourage you to continue your work, if you're simply looking for the numbers, a very detailed spreadsheet has already been assembled by Spooky/Spookeh that lists the numbers for every Tau weapon shooting with every possible BS against every possible target. It even includes vehicles! I've been meaning to link it to The Guide to Mech Tau for a while now, I just haven't gotten around to it. Here's his spreadsheet:

http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/...au-weapons.xls
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 15:43   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

about the excel doc.

I was wondering something like:
1. plot in number of attacks (eg, missile pod, 2 shots)
2. Plot in Bs (eg, crisis shas'el, 4)
3. Plot in S of weapon (eg, missile pod, S7)
4. Plot in AP (eg, missile pod, AP4)
5. Plot in targets T (eg, space marine, T4)
6. Plot in targets AS (eg, space marine, 3+ AS)

And when those numbers are put in, the doc. will automatically give you that:
'you have an average of 0.37 kills per round of shooting' (see example 1. Shas'el at 25-36")

So, any ideas of how to do this in excel? I'm not very skilled in the docs, but I'll sure give it a go If someone can contribute or have any ideas, please mail me at Olannon_88@hotmail.com

Anyone else has some thoughts on the subject? Please tell!



~Olannon

EDIT: WOW, that link was kinda awesome TOnka, but it's missing out one of my main points: kill efficiency. As I've proved, there is a difference in point-by-point efficience, and I'd like to see who's more effective and who ain't. I'd also link to encourage people to twink-link, specializing instead of simply doing the normal fireknife/helios. Twin-link a weapon! Oh, and yeah, the excel from spookeh was great, but it's kinda big and sort of... daunting, however easy to read if you can simply focus for 5 secs and put in the good-will . I'm surprised no-one's made this a sticky (or have I been missing out?)... Maybe get a mod to look at that link, perhaps improve it?
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 16:53   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

Olannon,

After all this discussion of automated efficiency applications, I was motivated to get the XV8 Tactical Performance Simulator up and running again. This still doesn't address the issue of efficiency, but by clicking the "Advanced" button, you can see the statistical number of kills for an ENTIRE SUIT rather than just a single weapon.
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"i like to think of playing against my list as being like punching jelly. you put all your effort in but it just moves out of the way and you cause no damage. then your arm is covered in jelly. and the chicks come out and start wrestling in the jelly, and i drink a beer with stone cold steve austin, and we watch the chicks jelly wrestling, and then the slap-bass funk starts wakka chakka wakka wakka woh" -- Spooky, describing Mech Tau

"You can of course make a list that attempts to work via fragility and easy VP donation and Pathfinders fit into that just fine." -- kai
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 17:30   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

I can't seem to open that link... However, one of the main issues is to make clear kills/point, as IMO, this is the most important. Of course, having high BS so you can absolutely take out that termie when you MUST finish the group is good, but generally I'd like to see the kills per point ratio of different equipped suits, as well as convincing people to twinlink (although this might change when tetras are coming out, together with the new commander battlesuits with markerlights. We'll finally (perhaps) have some way of hitting them easily without twinlinking.

Still, suggestions and thoughts from you guys (especially your link(s) T0nka), are great and I really appreciate your help.



~Olannon
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 17:50   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olannon
I can't seem to open that link...
hahaha, I'm dumb.

I went to all the trouble of fixing the darned thing, and then turned my PC off when I left this morning to go to the library. Although The Guide to Mech Tau is hosted from my University web space, I had to install a web-hosting program at home and serve that particular page off my personal PC because it uses PHP scripting which isn't supported by the server that hosts the rest of The Guide.

So long story short... check back in ~5 hours.
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"i like to think of playing against my list as being like punching jelly. you put all your effort in but it just moves out of the way and you cause no damage. then your arm is covered in jelly. and the chicks come out and start wrestling in the jelly, and i drink a beer with stone cold steve austin, and we watch the chicks jelly wrestling, and then the slap-bass funk starts wakka chakka wakka wakka woh" -- Spooky, describing Mech Tau

"You can of course make a list that attempts to work via fragility and easy VP donation and Pathfinders fit into that just fine." -- kai
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Old 15 Sep 2005, 18:29   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some 'mathhammer' ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olannon
as well as convincing people to twinlink (although this might change when tetras are coming out, together with the new commander battlesuits with markerlights. We'll finally (perhaps) have some way of hitting them easily without twinlinking.
We already have that...they're called pathfinders. Of course, it takes some skill to get the most out of them, and even more skill to keep them alive past the third turn. And I definitely wouldn't take them in a fully mechanized army...but they're out there, and they're winning games for those who dare use them. It really bugs me when people act like the capabilty they provide is something that tau "are lacking and urgently need added in the new codex"...it's like they don't even exist, or something. Maybe if they had T4 and 3+AS, more people would play them :
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