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some rule clarifications
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 01:22   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default some rule clarifications

Last game a couple of rule misunderstandings came up. I'm hoping a few people here could clear them up.

i had a squad of 12 kroot about 10 inches deep into a forest. Could they still rapid fire at 12 inches? or would it be halved to 6 inches? or none at all?

This one is somewhat related. If an enemy unit assaults a squad of kroot 10 inches deep into forest, do the kroot, do they (the kroot) get to strike first? (My friend insisted that they didn't because the gaunts were in cover as well.) Does a bonus apply because of the fieldcraft ability and cover saves with kroot.
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 01:25   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commando O
Last game a couple of rule misunderstandings came up. I'm hoping a few people here could clear them up.

i had a squad of 12 kroot about 10 inches deep into a forest. Could they still rapid fire at 12 inches? or would it be halved to 6 inches? or none at all?
cover doesnt affect weapons ranges, so yes kroot can shoot out from 10" within all they want. this is the kroots biggest trick: where they can shoot out but no one can shoot back in

Quote:
This one is somewhat related. If an enemy unit assaults a squad of kroot 10 inches deep into forest, do the kroot, do they (the kroot) get to strike first? (My friend insisted that they didn't because the gaunts were in cover as well.) Does a bonus apply because of the fieldcraft ability and cover saves with kroot.
in this case kroot would have I10.... as per the rules. this one's really clear, the Tyr player was trying to mince you with both gaunts AND rules. unless the Gaunts in question had frag grenades theres no other way to get around this rule.
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 01:34   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

Quote:
i had a squad of 12 kroot about 10 inches deep into a forest. Could they still rapid fire at 12 inches? or would it be halved to 6 inches? or none at all?
They Rapid fire at 12 inches. Just ask your friend to show you anything in the rules that suggests rapid fire range would ever be reduced for any reason. There is nothing like that.

Of course, as long as they don't move that is. If they do move, they cannot see through 12 inches of forest as per the fieldcraft rules.

Quote:
This one is somewhat related. If an enemy unit assaults a squad of kroot 10 inches deep into forest, do the kroot, do they (the kroot) get to strike first? (My friend insisted that they didn't because the gaunts were in cover as well.) Does a bonus apply because of the fieldcraft ability and cover saves with kroot.
I've asked the GW employees at my shop twice (two different employees) and both say you get to go first anyway when charged and both are in cover. This is because the charging unit must still pass through cover and is slowed, so the defending unit gets to take shots and defensive positions and etc. On page 39 of the small rulebook, it says "If, before any assaulting models are moved, a direct line from the assaulting model to the enemy model passes through the cover then it is assumed to be enough of an obstruction to count."

You do not get cover saves in combat. This means kroot are very squishy, and is just about the only reason to take a shaper and his armor save IMO.
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 01:43   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

ooh! good one i missed that rules-eyness! you need to be stationary to use fieldcraft.... so ya youll only get to 12" Rapid fire if HE comes to YOU
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 04:24   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

I'd like to piggyback some rules questions on this thread.
  • Does an ethereal allow you to reroll Last Man Standing checks?
  • Does a markerlight remove the cover save of units with built-in cover saves, such as Flaming Falcons? How about that blizzard wolf psychic power?
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 05:26   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

"Does an ethereal allow you to reroll Last Man Standing checks?"

"Last Man Standing" is considered a Morale check, so yes, having an Ethreal on the table will apply in this situation.

"Does a markerlight remove the cover save of units with built-in cover saves, such as Flaming Falcons? How about that blizzard wolf psychic power?"

When a markerlight lights up a target any weapon firing on that will negate any cover saves it has. This works to great effectivness on units such as Lictors. Which always have a cover save.
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 05:35   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

Another quick one:

Does AP1 auto-pen on a hull-down vehicle?

I've heard a lot of sources say yes. But I called GW and they said no. but I *still* think they're wrong, cause I called the next day and they said it DOES.

My justification is that the shot just goes through ANY blocking terrain. Just like a modern day tank can shoot other tanks through sand dunes with no problem...

Does an AP1 auto-pen on a skimmer that moved over 6''?

Again. I've called GW twice about this, and got contradictory results!
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 05:39   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

I had a friendly arguement about this one with one of my friends. My reasoning was the same as you...makes sense...its a Railgun. But then he whipped out the big black book. It stated that hulled-down counted under the "obscuered" target rules. So even agianst AP1...it's still going to be a glancing hit...sry.
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 11:12   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commando O
i had a squad of 12 kroot about 10 inches deep into a forest. Could they still rapid fire at 12 inches? or would it be halved to 6 inches? or none at all?
Notice in the rules of Field Craft it states that if you do not move, you can see and shoot through up to 12 inches of terrain, instead of the 6 inches that would normally be the case? That is because we cannot see through area terrain (in your case, jungle terrain) very far. But Kroot's special rule allows them to see through much more than normal, but only if they do not move. It has nothing to do with your opponent coming to you or anything like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commando O
This one is somewhat related. If an enemy unit assaults a squad of kroot 10 inches deep into forest, do the kroot, do they (the kroot) get to strike first? (My friend insisted that they didn't because the gaunts were in cover as well.) Does a bonus apply because of the fieldcraft ability and cover saves with kroot.
As others have said, you will be striking first at Initiative 10. If both units started in cover, that would be different. But because he assaulted you in cover, meaning he entered it and did not start there with you, then he is forced to suffer the consequences of charging into a defensive area like that. The only way he could have changed this, is if he had Flesh Hooks (the equivalent of Frag Grenades) allowing him to strike at the same initiative, but never higher than you. This whole situation is only in effect on that first time that they are charged in cover. Afterwards, such as in the next player turn if they're all still around, they will strike at normal initiative values, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DireStrike
I'd like to piggyback some rules questions on this thread.
  • Does an ethereal allow you to reroll Last Man Standing checks?
  • Does a markerlight remove the cover save of units with built-in cover saves, such as Flaming Falcons? How about that blizzard wolf psychic power?
Last Man Standing is a leadership test, not a moral check. That means the Ethereal does not help with Last Man Standing checks.

Markerlights always remove the cover save from their targets. It doesn't matter if it's a latent cover save, or just an acquired one from sitting in cover. Either way, it's still negated by the weapon if it's guided by a markerlight (ie: you can shoot right through rangers cloaks, concealment powers, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth1111
Does AP1 auto-pen on a hull-down vehicle?
Hull-down no longer exists. Instead, we have Obscured Targets. An AP1 weapon will only be able to auto-penetrate (instead of merely glancing) if it's possible to penetrate in the first place. For a vehicle that is obscured, there is a dice roll for this, which allows a 50% chance that you can only glance it, or not. Should you roll that D6 and determine that it is indeed obscured, then no, you may not auto-penetrate it with an AP1 weapon as it will be "glance only" for that turn. However, if you determined otherwise with that D6 that the vehicle was not obscured, then yes, you may auto-penetrate it assuming you don't roll a 1 for penetration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth1111
Does an AP1 auto-pen on a skimmer that moved over 6''?
This never happens. Just like you cannot auto-penetrate a vehicle using smoke launchers. When you have a rule that makes the vehicle "glance only," such as skimmers moving fast, or smoke launchers, that over-rides the ability to auto-penetrate. Auto-penetration with Ap1 weapons only works when we have the chance to penetrate in the first place. If we cannot penetrate at all anyways, then the rule doesn't apply. If a skimmer moves over 6 inches in the movement phase, it is considered "glance only" via "Skimmers moving Fast." An AP1 weapon will not be able to auto-penetrate it, because all damage against the vehicle in that state are converted to glances, no matter what. The same is true for a vehicle with smoke launchers, as smoke launchers makes the vehicle "glance only" in which case auto-penetration doesn't work, because it is converted into a glance no matter what.

Cheers!
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Old 09 Aug 2005, 15:47   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: some rule clarifications

Quote:
If both units started in cover, that would be different.
I believe that this is indeed the case, as the forest was 10 inches deep. In any case, I don't see why the enemy starting in cover would remove the cover advantage from the defender. Every charge through cover, whether you start in it or not, requires you to roll difficult terrain. Therefore the attacking force is delayed, giving the defenders time to prepare for the fight, taking up defensive positions and such. More to the point, it seems to me that it would need to be stated explicitly that units in the same cover ignore the defenders' benefits. The only thing close to this in the rulebook is the mention of the combat "sweeping in to the cover" after the first round of combat. I believe that, as usual, the rulebook rule is written for the simplest possible circumstances without consideration of more complex situations. "The cover" in this context could not mean the entire piece of terrain. It makes much more sense that it means whatever cover the defenders are hiding in.

Or so I reason, anyway.
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