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HQ choices - How to/best options
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Old 11 Apr 2011, 02:13   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default HQ choices - How to/best options

The way I see it, 1 lone wolf Commander is a lot of fun with an Airburster and Missile Pod. Pop in and out of cover, no line of sight for Airburster (+ no cover saves), and leave Anti-tank to other units.

But how about the 2nd HQ slot? I currently use a lone wolf Melta + Missile Pod commander to pop a tank in deep-strike move (makes back points) then have enough survivability to take 1 turn of shooting and proceed to jump around doing what ever because points are already made back (hopefully tank dies first shot). Melta + Missile Pods are great Instant Death weapons for many high priority targets (anything T4 or under) also, and can still hurt heavy infantry.

My question is, should I take one of my Elites units of Crisis Suits and give them the Commander to lead? I can see the benefit in the way that 1 lone wolf commander with missile pod + plasma rifle (or something) can't do a heap of damage every turn against enemy squads of say 10. With 2 extra suits though, that unit can be hurt pretty bad.

The other aspect is, I can take 2 Elites suits and my HQ as 2 seperate units. This means that my enemy will have to split their concentration of fire but I can still deal the same amount of damage to their units.

Shield Drones are a must for me, 30pts for extra wounds and 4++ against ID weapons is a win. Shield Generators however are 20pts for just a 4++ save. With a Shas'el, I could probably handle an Instant Death (3 wounds gone, if I have full remaining after 2 SD die) and with a Shas'o, loosing 4 wounds from 1 weapon really hurts.

Looking for opinions/thoughts, thanks
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Old 11 Apr 2011, 06:12   #2 (permalink)
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Personally I'm a big fan of running just 1 large HQ squad since the shots it can put out remain highly reliable even if pathfinders have been wiped off the table. Standard crisis suits can't take these benefits in as high of a level, meaning if i lose my markers, there's just no guarantee they'll get anything done.

My most played HQ configuration is as follows:

Shas'el - Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Positional Relay Stim Injector, HW Multitracker, Bonding Knife, HW Drone Controller 2 Shield Drones, HW Target Lock
Bodyguard 1 - Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Targetting Array, HW Multitracker, HW Drone Controller 2 Shield Drones,
Bodyguard 2 - Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Targetting Array, HW Multitracker, HW Drone Controller 2 Marker Drones, HW Target Lock
Total 350 Points

Expensive? Yes. but what are you getting? a unit with 4 ablative shield drones, that you can also allocate weak wounds away from towards your shas'el who has feel no pain. The squad can target 3 separate light vehicles, keep 2 extra marker drones safe for additional support against a particularly annoying target, and concentrate fire for anti-horde with max efficiency at 18", meaning you're raining death without fear of assault threats.

Of course its not required... most people that see it gawk at the point expenditures. It works really well in tandem with advancing helios suits though, providing cover fire from further back as the plasmas and meltas deal with high armor units up close...
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Old 11 Apr 2011, 16:11   #3 (permalink)
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These days i run five crisis suits two hq shas'els with 3 single unit elite suits as leaders all equipped with fusion blaster missile pod hardwired multitrackers and targeting arrays i also play a lot of pathfinders so i can get the marker beacons i then drop all those guys behind tanks and vaporise them with two BS5 suits and three BS4 suits it's been really effective so far.

and i get it all for a mere 385 points which is a lot better value than tehlegends HQ setup and earns back points in the hundreds especially against imperial guard eldar and space marines.

nice leman russ drop bang nice stormraven drop bang nice wave serpent drop bang...no sorry that field thing doesn't work from the back ^_^

and best of all they make their own cover hiding behind the tank they just wrecked.

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Old 12 Apr 2011, 05:48   #4 (permalink)
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Cheap yes, but hardly reliable. if you're tank shocking behind a vehicle, you have to worry about A. the scatter off the table or into enemy units, and B, the devilfish actually having LOS to the ground in the back of the tank. With any other army out there I would consider it viable, but we've got railguns, which makes 5 total deep striking anti-armor suits very redundant. Plus, against IG, its very unlikely they'll survive afterwards thanks to lasgun spam, or the plethora of plasmas, meltas, and lascannons that they bring in bulk.

The point of stacking the units together into one big group is to increase survivability. The IG and space marine players can shoot at this squad all day with lascannons and plasmas, or bolters and lasguns, and short of ridiculously bad rolling, this squad will last an entire game without much loss in fire power. it only takes 1 lascannon or melta to target a suit to wipe it off the field and if your opponent has any infantry squad nearby that is in range, you can bet your ass that suits gonna get cooked. Will you have enough reliable firepower in place after the suits are done?

Now yes, the single suit teams are well suited to surprise drops in the back field, and i do make use of them this way as excellent disruption units, but large groups can deal with large squads, and make far more efficient use of markerlights, having all the suits simultaneously boosted and ignoring cover saves with minimal marker expenditures. Blob squads, standard marine squads, and most other examples of average large model count units can overrun these independent suits with basic tactics. There is a need for a heavy hitting unit that can deliver that clear and concise 'screw you' to your opponent without playing up the whole keep-away game. The squad I run drastically weakens any unit that tries to close in on it, maintains its threat level against multiple targets, and provides excellent support fire and markerlight boosts. It shuts down armor and infantry squads with equal ease, and I don't have a reason to fear losing any suits prior to turn 4 with the strategy I typically run, it rarely ever gets assaulted in a game PERIOD. 2-3 anti-tank deep strikers is OK, but unless you're running no railguns, I don't think anymore is necessary.
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Old 12 Apr 2011, 16:25   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
Cheap yes, but hardly reliable. if you're tank shocking behind a vehicle, you have to worry about A. the scatter off the table or into enemy units, and B, the devilfish actually having LOS to the ground in the back of the tank. With any other army out there I would consider it viable, but we've got railguns, which makes 5 total deep striking anti-armor suits very redundant. Plus, against IG, its very unlikely they'll survive afterwards thanks to lasgun spam, or the plethora of plasmas, meltas, and lascannons that they bring in bulk.
the odds of a perfect landing is 3:1 and with the pathfinders it's twinlinked i almost always hit spot on it's quite reliable so thats rubbish and if your going behind a tank you only need to be in 12" to use the blaster which in melta or not will likely penetrate the usual 10 rear armour and even in the worse case scenario you have a 3:1 chance of simply being delayed.

i run THREE pathfinder teams so again i have almost at all times 90% of the table in LOS

these days i don't really run any railguns so their not redundant their my primary anti tank choice

if i get my 69 point suit down and destroy a tank worth 150 or so points thats a job well done do it three or more times and i'm very likely going to win so whether or not they survive a turn is irrelevant.


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The point of stacking the units together into one big group is to increase survivability. The IG and space marine players can shoot at this squad all day with lascannons and plasmas, or bolters and lasguns, and short of ridiculously bad rolling, this squad will last an entire game without much loss in fire power. it only takes 1 lascannon or melta to target a suit to wipe it off the field and if your opponent has any infantry squad nearby that is in range, you can bet your ass that suits gonna get cooked. Will you have enough reliable firepower in place after the suits are done?

all the survivability in the WORLD means absolutely nothing if you can't earn your points back 350 points for 9 ...5,5's and 6 ...7,4's you'll struggle in most games to get that back with that kind of firepower

and you forget if that unit gets into CC it's STILL toast regardless of what it has because it's either going to get locked down because it can't kill anything or your opponent will grind you down or if your unlucky wipe it with a sweeping advance and with 18" weapons thats a very real possibility if you had plasma rifles i might buy that you could reliably keep them out of CC but not with burst cannons not if your actually using them.

and again if my 69 point suit earns back around 150 points my opponent can have it the game is about doing more damage to your opponent than they do to you.

and am i going to have reliable enough reliable firepower after my suits are gone OF COURSE i spent 385 points on them you spent 350 on your HQ alone with pitiful amounts of comparative firepower are you saying you have at the very beginning of the game a lack of reliable firepower?

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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
Now yes, the single suit teams are well suited to surprise drops in the back field, and i do make use of them this way as excellent disruption units, but large groups can deal with large squads, and make far more efficient use of markerlights, having all the suits simultaneously boosted and ignoring cover saves with minimal marker expenditures. Blob squads, standard marine squads, and most other examples of average large model count units can overrun these independent suits with basic tactics. There is a need for a heavy hitting unit that can deliver that clear and concise 'screw you' to your opponent without playing up the whole keep-away game. The squad I run drastically weakens any unit that tries to close in on it, maintains its threat level against multiple targets, and provides excellent support fire and markerlight boosts. It shuts down armor and infantry squads with equal ease, and I don't have a reason to fear losing any suits prior to turn 4 with the strategy I typically run, it rarely ever gets assaulted in a game PERIOD. 2-3 anti-tank deep strikers is OK, but unless you're running no railguns, I don't think anymore is necessary.
i don't actually run railguns i don't believe you when you say your HQ doesn't get assaulted PERIOD theres very few units that mean anything your HQ can "drastically" weaken a single suit blowing up a tank is far more of a "screw you" than what your combined HQ can do and five of them is more of a "screw you" than your unit can do ALL game assuming it even survives.

you say there is a need for heavy hitting unit well how do you know i don't have one i could easily get one after all i play 1750 point games so i still have 1365 thats plenty to play around with.

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Old 13 Apr 2011, 06:00   #6 (permalink)
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Great. All those points are awesome and fine and are great points in terms of your play style...



but first things first, the chances of a standard perfect landing are more along the lines of 1:3, given the fact that only 2 of the 6 sides of the Scatter dice are actually dead on hits), and re-rolling allows for an 1/3 of the remainder. That's a 5:4 chance of a 'perfect landing', only slightly better than 50%

Of the other 4 out of 6 total sides of the dice, you're scattering an average of 7 inches, and given the range of the melta, optimal placement of the landing unit being roughly 3-4 inches away from the tank, and the probability of the back armor of an IG vehicle being near a table edge, i can bet that most scatter that deviates towards your target will be catastrophic, and otherwise, a scatter of more than 4 inches in either other direction short of maintaining a roughly equal distance will negate melta. Adding all of that to the list of other theoretical variables that I really don't want to put anymore brainpower into, and you're probably going to get your chances improved to about 3:2 that you'll land in an effective place at all.



Second, yes, blowing up vehicles is the biggest middle finger we can give to our opponent. What are you going to do after the vehicles are dead, or god forbid, if the army doesn't bring any at all? Kite them all day with missiles and pray he fails enough saves over the course of 5 or more turns? If its objectives, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can outmaneuver your opponent and keep him off one objective you own and contest the rest. but if the OP is not so lucky and faces someone equal to or maybe slightly more experienced than he is, will he have a unit that can force more than 3 possible total wounds on it reliably?

In Kill points, you get completely shafted as your setup basically relies on trading 5 kill points on the hopes of earning all 5 kill points back immediately to assume an advantageous position

To make it worse, your setup uses all 5 slots we have available for plasma weapons and fills it with minimal units. The only other things we have in our codex that can bypass a 3+ save are vespids in the fast attack (tricky but you cant deny that they aren't exactly the optimal unit for the job), or everything in the heavy slots like broadsides, and hammerhead railguns (which you state you make zero use of, and are far overpriced for marine/termie hunting anyways), Ionheads, which can only kill a potential 3 per turn (more likely 2 with the chances to miss), and on a good day in a 5 turn game thats only barely making its points back, Sniper drone teams (which have zero mobility and are easy to kill within 18"), and the skyray (which only carries 6 such shots).

The most efficient marine killing units we have in the game are instead. directed towards anti-tank roles which broadsides are far more effective at anyways (short of targeting land raiders and leman russes, which railguns are still admittedly good at, you just won't take them). Personally I don't think its a strategy I want to recommend to a new player, though it definitely looks like it would be a fun exercise to undertake for learning purposes.



Third.

Quote:
all the survivability in the WORLD means absolutely nothing if you can't earn your points back 350 points for 9 ...5,5's and 6 ...7,4's you'll struggle in most games to get that back with that kind of firepower

and you forget if that unit gets into CC it's STILL toast regardless of what it has because it's either going to get locked down because it can't kill anything or your opponent will grind you down or if your unlucky wipe it with a sweeping advance and with 18" weapons thats a very real possibility if you had plasma rifles i might buy that you could reliably keep them out of CC but not with burst cannons not if your actually using them.

and again if my 69 point suit earns back around 150 points my opponent can have it the game is about doing more damage to your opponent than they do to you.

and am i going to have reliable enough reliable firepower after my suits are gone OF COURSE i spent 385 points on them you spent 350 on your HQ alone with pitiful amounts of comparative firepower are you saying you have at the very beginning of the game a lack of reliable firepower?

The premise behind the logic is sound, but either your area of experience regarding different codices is lacking, or there's just not alot of diverse strategies your LGS is providing you with. Your 5 suit combo literally gets brushed aside with the most basic tyrannid lists for example, since they have nothing in terms of armored vehicles and all their units either A, come in obscene quantities with fearless, or B, have a strength and toughness that can shrug off most of our weapons, most often with their 3+ armor and multiple wounds. If you're carrying no railguns, and only have 5 suits, the best strength weapon on your suits you can bring to bear against their monsters are fusion blasters. Good luck working out of that.

That's saying nothing of lists like pure Stormraven Terminators, Drop pod armies, and FNP Jetpackers. All of which are common lists that are devastating to any Tau army, even with max suits packing plasma.

I'm not saying my HQ choice is perfect for all of these, But it certainly covers alot of bases well and doesn't restrict the rest of my list. With no more HQ fast or Elite squads available to you, and zero railgun support, how do you counter such lists?


Quote:
i don't actually run railguns i don't believe you when you say your HQ doesn't get assaulted PERIOD theres very few units that mean anything your HQ can "drastically" weaken a single suit blowing up a tank is far more of a "screw you" than what your combined HQ can do and five of them is more of a "screw you" than your unit can do ALL game assuming it even survives.

you say there is a need for heavy hitting unit well how do you know i don't have one i could easily get one after all i play 1750 point games so i still have 1365 thats plenty to play around with.
The one thing the big squad does that your independent squads cannot do is force alot of wounds. It can put such a large number of wounds on something that it forces important models to take a save, which results in a higher chance of killing something providing a special ability, like an apothecary, commissar, team leader, or a specific weapon you just don't like. It can constantly kite targets at an 18" range rather than 12" meaning it has more time and room to maneuver while maintaining peak efficiency. It can engage vehicles reliably, and break infantry that get close. It cannot be picked off by a stray lascannon shot. It can remain offensively viable against 95% of the models in the game for longer than its first shooting phase, and actually be good at it. While your drop suits have a reasonably good chance to pop 5 vehicles (it'll probably be 2-3 given the chances of failure, and the others probably won't suffer major damage), They are almost always going to be popped on the opponents following turn, and they always arrive late on turn 2 or later, which gives your opponent 1-2 movement phases to close the distance with your army.

My proposed squad is expensive, but it earns it's points back not in a gung-ho suicide rush fashion, but a well rounded, highly durable, take all comers method. It can simultaneously cover anti-armor, and anti-infantry, and I can expect it to dish out 3-4 full turns of damage without any loss in effectiveness. It can provide marker support, meaning if pathfinders get wiped, I don't necessarily lose my BS boost or Cover save strip, and at least this squad can operate independently from them.

On the last point, I could say the same to you. I spent only 1 slot to cover far more threats than what you dedicated all 5 slots to, and I still have plenty of points AND slots left. We can assume I can ATLEAST MATCH your anti-tank capabilities from the simple fact that I actually use railguns, so maybe, just maybe, I have enough points left over for markerlights and additional anti-infantry.

Last edited by tehlegend; 13 Apr 2011 at 06:02.
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Old 13 Apr 2011, 08:06   #7 (permalink)
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going back on topic it really just boils down to your play style. Obviously there is a lot of personal play preferences here that conflict. Personally I don't like the lone wolf style because one high str shot and it's done. And after all the points you spend on it that's not really a cheap loss either.

i have gotten to like the Shas'O myself and had a lot of fun with him. Others think that it's a waste of points to go Shas'O and should take Shas'el with targeting arrays however my opponents are good at getting me into CC so the extra attack wound and WS are a nice bonus unless he's going against an independent or CC expert then he's Tango Uniform.

A lot of it also goes with what kind of armies and strategies you face. So try out a few different types and see what works for you. I like my leader to go people hunting so I tend to outfit him below and attach him to an existing unit. (Also the CIB is f'n fantastic I always get at least 1 rend and was able to get 4 Rends on termies once.)
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Old 13 Apr 2011, 09:45   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
but first things first, the chances of a standard perfect landing are more along the lines of 1:3, given the fact that only 2 of the 6 sides of the Scatter dice are actually dead on hits), and re-rolling allows for an 1/3 of the remainder. That's a 5:4 chance of a 'perfect landing', only slightly better than 50%
3:1 and 1:3 are the same thing with a second go so your just restating what i sai except worked out the mathammer better than 50/50 is pretty good in warhammer and as i stated last time you don't need a perfect landing unless your going after a landraider so anywhere within 12 is fine and if your cautious with the missile pod anywhere behind will nearly do so scatter is a fairly minute point if your a competent player.

your desperation to prove otherwise aside it's effective and against imp guard even broadsides will have fairly shitty odds of being effective against 14 front Armour.


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Second, yes, blowing up vehicles is the biggest middle finger we can give to our opponent. What are you going to do after the vehicles are dead, or god forbid, if the army doesn't bring any at all? Kite them all day with missiles and pray he fails enough saves over the course of 5 or more turns? If its objectives, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can outmaneuver your opponent and keep him off one objective you own and contest the rest. but if the OP is not so lucky and faces someone equal to or maybe slightly more experienced than he is, will he have a unit that can force more than 3 possible total wounds on it reliably?
doesn't bring any vehicles at all lol please keep it semi serious at least please

and this says more about your hq than my 5 suits i have more/better firepower than you have which is effective against a much wider variety of enemies vehicles or not my suit loadout for similar points is better than yours in term of firepower.

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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
In Kill points, you get completely shafted as your setup basically relies on trading 5 kill points on the hopes of earning all 5 kill points back immediately to assume an advantageous position
i don't play in tournies with kill points as it's a completly unfair system that favours space marines i play victory points as does most tournaments in Ireland if the tournament was kill points and i was playing i wouldn't bring tau at all.


[QUOTE=tehlegend;1391621
To make it worse, your setup uses all 5 slots we have available for plasma weapons and fills it with minimal units. The only other things we have in our codex that can bypass a 3+ save are vespids in the fast attack (tricky but you cant deny that they aren't exactly the optimal unit for the job), or everything in the heavy slots like broadsides, and hammerhead railguns (which you state you make zero use of, and are far overpriced for marine/termie hunting anyways), Ionheads, which can only kill a potential 3 per turn (more likely 2 with the chances to miss), and on a good day in a 5 turn game thats only barely making its points back, Sniper drone teams (which have zero mobility and are easy to kill within 18"), and the skyray (which only carries 6 such shots).
[/QUOTE]

Vespid are the optimal unit for space marine hunting actually thats been proven here a few times so i can and do deny that i also state that your wrong in that regard.

as for skyrays thats true if you only bring one and don't equip other units with seekers correctly optimized you can have about 25-26 seekers with the kind of points left to me you also forget about piranha though i would assume you'd state that are too expensive for the role.

you also seem to think you need to negate 3+ armour to kill a space marine ironically the fish of fury which you were so gun ho for a few days ago is quite effective on space marines.

so i'm certainly not short on ways of killing space marines.

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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
The most efficient marine killing units we have in the game are instead. directed towards anti-tank roles which broadsides are far more effective at anyways (short of targeting land raiders and leman russes, which railguns are still admittedly good at, you just won't take them). Personally I don't think its a strategy I want to recommend to a new player, though it definitely looks like it would be a fun exercise to undertake for learning purposes.
the most efficient marine killing unit are the vespid unless you have an alternative view on efficiency

as for the broadside thing thats only true in certain cases for example against a wave serpent with the field to our broadsides it might as well be a landraider since it reduces the str of the railgun to 8 so getting even missile pods behind it is far more effective than broadsides cheaper too and as you state the leman russ other Tau units because of the dis pod and in almost all other cases it's at least as effective or close to it as a broadside.....team since my suits will get three shots where a broadside TEAM will still only get three shots even if they are twin linked also deepstriking presents an opportunity to negate cover without markerlights so if you play without them suits have one more advantage.

Also i'm not recommending this STRATEGY his free to back this up with broadsides and use it minimally till he feels comfortable with it or finds his own style this thread was originally about the best way to equip a suit and i'm saying the best way is with hard hitting anti tank weps and then to deepstrike it.

and in a lot of cases the points spent to points returned scenarios would favour this.


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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
The premise behind the logic is sound, but either your area of experience regarding different codices is lacking, or there's just not alot of diverse strategies your LGS is providing you with. Your 5 suit combo literally gets brushed aside with the most basic tyrannid lists for example, since they have nothing in terms of armored vehicles and all their units either A, come in obscene quantities with fearless, or B, have a strength and toughness that can shrug off most of our weapons, most often with their 3+ armor and multiple wounds. If you're carrying no railguns, and only have 5 suits, the best strength weapon on your suits you can bring to bear against their monsters are fusion blasters. Good luck working out of that.
i don't have a local games club i play entirely in tournaments so i can confidently say my experience is superior to yours in this regard and through that experience i can say that the tyranid codex is all but dead now thanks to the ever increasing CC of space marines and now with the grey knight codexs power/force weapons it's a codex that is severely outgunned i haven't seen a tryanid army in ages nor will i anytime soon.

the tyranid codex is less competitive than our own these days.

also skyrays are very effective against tyranids monsters negating cover and wounding on a 2 i could field piles of them field dozens of firewarriors for all you know or piles of vehicles with flechettes and i find in almost all regards here that this type of scenario creation is the last desperate attempt of a person to bring down a sound strategy that they have no other way of denting.

and considering how you constantly overstate your abilities i think it's you who fights an unvaried array of subpar opponents you say tyranids would wipe my suits well i say eldar either type would eat your hq

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
That's saying nothing of lists like pure Stormraven Terminators, Drop pod armies, and FNP Jetpackers. All of which are common lists that are devastating to any Tau army, even with max suits packing plasma.

I'm not saying my HQ choice is perfect for all of these, But it certainly covers alot of bases well and doesn't restrict the rest of my list. With no more HQ fast or Elite squads available to you, and zero railgun support, how do you counter such lists?
no of course your not saying your HQ is perfect for them they would have their face ripped off against them

but how would i counter such lists skyrays are great against feel no pain jetpackers both matching their speed negating their FNP armour and cover saves same for drop pod armies when combined with fish of fury tactics thats two down handy enough the pure stormraven terminator army is the easiest of all i hold pretty much everything in reserve i drop and pop the stormravens for my point range of games their will be two max the termies can eat my suits afterward don't care i just earned back almost five times my points and now the termies are pretty much stranded since their so slow i only now care about them if it's grey knights and they count as troops.

since they spent so many points on strormravens and terminators i should be able to easily pick off the rest of their army with fish or furies and skyrays since they won't have much in the way of other troops i should be able to isolate them and concentrate fire on them with my fast moving transports and skyrays take a few objectives and toss a few drones and/or skyrays at the the others to contest them.

so i should win victory point or objective based games fairly easily and i don't play kill point tournies since they give an unfair advantage to exactly that kind of list.

have we had enough of these scenarios it's getting pretty sad now.


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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
The one thing the big squad does that your independent squads cannot do is force alot of wounds. It can put such a large number of wounds on something that it forces important models to take a save, which results in a higher chance of killing something providing a special ability, like an apothecary, commissar, team leader, or a specific weapon you just don't like. It can constantly kite targets at an 18" range rather than 12" meaning it has more time and room to maneuver while maintaining peak efficiency. It can engage vehicles reliably, and break infantry that get close. It cannot be picked off by a stray lascannon shot. It can remain offensively viable against 95% of the models in the game for longer than its first shooting phase, and actually be good at it. While your drop suits have a reasonably good chance to pop 5 vehicles (it'll probably be 2-3 given the chances of failure, and the others probably won't suffer major damage), They are almost always going to be popped on the opponents following turn, and they always arrive late on turn 2 or later, which gives your opponent 1-2 movement phases to close the distance with your army.
your comparing my very specialized target orientated suits to your hq and then making an awful lot of assumptions about both all favoring yours it's all a pile of rubbish since i do not intend to do any of those things with my suits.

and you overestimate your suit in the extreme it engages vehicles reliably for 350 points it'd want to be trashing landraiders a few transports aren't going to earn that back.

it can kite back at 18" thats a joke jump packs beast/cavalry lucky fleet units pretty much anything eldar and dark eldar have to offer will all engage that in CC then your entire unit becomes valueless 350 points of worthless that barely had a chance to kill anything.

breaks infantry that gets close what idiot is going to allow infantry with an Armour save vulnerable to this get close.

it cannot be picked off by a stray lascannon shot what tool is shooting stray shots at this their ignoring it with firepower closing in on it and about to engage it in CC with bikes jump packs eldar anything etc

it can remain viable against 95% of the models in the game no SERIOUSLY now your having some sort of a laugh now anything with FNP anything with a 2+ save any vehicle with 12 or more armour etc etc i'm almost at the point of considering you a joke.

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My proposed squad is expensive, but it earns it's points back not in a gung-ho suicide rush fashion, but a well rounded, highly durable, take all comers method. It can simultaneously cover anti-armor, and anti-infantry, and I can expect it to dish out 3-4 full turns of damage without any loss in effectiveness. It can provide marker support, meaning if pathfinders get wiped, I don't necessarily lose my BS boost or Cover save strip, and at least this squad can operate independently from them.
i don't believe you how does this earn back it's points in a typical game against most opponents it's toast by turn 3 ...2 if it started on the field it can only do piss weak anti armour it can only do piss weak infantry and clearly your playing with idiots it can score a single marker a turn for an outrageous 60 points so your doing feck all BS boosting and cover stripping with that and operating independently is for space marines not TAU my suits are more effective than yours without pathfinders since you need that marker just to match the BS of my suits at all

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On the last point, I could say the same to you. I spent only 1 slot to cover far more threats than what you dedicated all 5 slots to, and I still have plenty of points AND slots left. We can assume I can ATLEAST MATCH your anti-tank capabilities from the simple fact that I actually use railguns, so maybe, just maybe, I have enough points left over for markerlights and additional anti-infantry.
far more threats my guys OWN tanks your guys maybe threaten light vehicles and light infantry i'd rather have a squad of deathrains and firewarriors AND for the kind of points you've spent.In fact i would spend it one a squad of pathfinders their fish an entire squad of firewarriors shit i have piles of points lets go nuts bonding knife shasui seeker missiles targeting array STILL less points than your HQ and how much am i threatening with THAT how many points could that earn back and you can't say shit against it since your were all over how great this was only a few days ago.

match my anti tank only against certain opponents and you'll need at least six broadsides with target lock capabilities to do it so your anti tank if you take it in the form of railguns will cost far more than mine and will be far more vulnerable than mine since a stray unsaved lascannon is enough to get an entire squad of broadsides to run shield drones or not unless it's a full on three suits with shields which will be FAR more expensive than my anti tank and even then more vulnerable since i can be sure i'll get a shot off before being killed.

and yeah you might have some points for markers and anti infantry but not a chance of having more than me ^_^

on a direct comparison my guys are better because they unlike your guys have a GOOD chance of earning back their points and a chance of earning back HUGE points maybe even winning the game on their own where your guys will STRUGGLE to earn back their basic points.

Last edited by Antisocialnerd; 13 Apr 2011 at 12:09.
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Old 13 Apr 2011, 15:25   #9 (permalink)
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3:1 and 1:3 are the same thing with a second go so your just restating what i sai except worked out the mathammer better than 50/50 is pretty good in warhammer and as i stated last time you don't need a perfect landing unless your going after a landraider so anywhere within 12 is fine and if your cautious with the missile pod anywhere behind will nearly do so scatter is a fairly minute point if your a competent player...

.....

on a direct comparison my guys are better because they unlike your guys have a GOOD chance of earning back their points and a chance of earning back HUGE points maybe even winning the game on their own where your guys will STRUGGLE to earn back their basic points.
All of that coming from the guy that refuses to play anywhere there might be a chance of a kill points game, and never sees an army that isn't vehicle based...

That might not be overwhelming experience so much as lack of diversity.

Not once have I said that this squad is the end all be all for my army. You've criticized me for bringing in too many assumptions but you assume they are meant to take on everything and anything. How about you slow down for a second and think about how I have just a few more points left in a standard sized list to use, and the rest of my FOC to fill. I'll let you really think about all the arguments you made, and the assumptions you made about me which you then criticize me for making, and you can also brood on how I have posted excessively on unit efficiency for things like vespids and skyrays on this, and other forums, many of which you indirectly referenced. Come back when you've had a good long period to revise your argument of the rudeness, hypocrisy, and narrow-mindedness that I have gone through a lot of effort to try and forgive you for.
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Old 13 Apr 2011, 16:08   #10 (permalink)
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All of that coming from the guy that refuses to play anywhere there might be a chance of a kill points game, and never sees an army that isn't vehicle based...
kill points is an unfair system to Tau imperial guard eldar tyranids etc if you want to compete in something with one hand tied behind your back be my guest and i never said i refuse to play in kill point tournaments i just said i wouldn't be stupid enough to bring Tau.

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Originally Posted by tehlegend View Post
That might not be overwhelming experience so much as lack of diversity.
.
not my fault i only play in competitions not my fault vehicles are king of fifth edition yet apparently i still have more experience than you.

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Not once have I said that this squad is the end all be all for my army.
nor have i far as i recall

[QUOTE=tehlegend;1391650 You've criticized me for bringing in too many assumptions but you assume they are meant to take on everything and anything. [/QUOTE]

no i don't think that because i think it can't really take on anything certainly not enough to justify it's cost to be honest and your the one boasting about how it can take on everything err wait 95% of everything not me.

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How about you slow down for a second and think about how I have just a few more points left in a standard sized list to use, and the rest of my FOC to fill.
with the way you spend points do you really think 35 points will make a difference your not going to field any fast attack other than pathfinders same as me so what you've got some more elite slots gonna copy me with the rest of it? or just suit spam similarly disastrous units and eat all of your points up.

Last edited by Antisocialnerd; 13 Apr 2011 at 16:18.
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