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Are Tau Crisis Suits ESSENTIAL
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 15:35   #1 (permalink)
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Default Are Tau Crisis Suits ESSENTIAL

I'm opening this thread to spare Arti's Thread the spam of this debate on his thread

ok so on his thread i recommended a suitless list barring of course the obligatory HQ due to fact that i believe suits fair poorly in general against the incredible mobility of eldar lists BUT that is not what where going to debate

what this thread is a bout is that in response a number of people strongly disagreed with even the thought of not using suits saying that were NEEDED some going as far as to say as a list without them was "gimped".

Now for clarity i am not promoting suitless lists nor do i doubt the quality versatility and general usefulness of crisis suits but i do strongly disagree that suits are ESSENTIAL and that lists without suits are somehow inferior so i'm reposting the list i put over there and offer a challenge to those with that point of view.

1750 Pts - Tau Empire Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1749

HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 107 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 107 pts = (base cost 50 + Bonding Knife 5 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Stimulant Injector 10 + Missile Pod 12 + Plasma Rifle 20 + Multi-Tracker 5)

attach this to the 12 man squad

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 196 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 100 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Multi-Tracker 10) + Targeting Array 5

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (11#, 196 pts)
8 Pathfinder, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Devilfish, 100 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5 + Multi-Tracker 10) + Targeting Array 5

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10

Troops: Fire Warrior (12#, 120 pts)
12 Fire Warrior, 120 pts = 12 * 10

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (3#, 265 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 95 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5 + Team Leader 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 85 pts = (base cost 70 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Multi-Tracker 5)

Fast Attack: Piranha Light Skimmer (9#, 285 pts)
3 Piranha Light Skimmer, 285 pts = 3 * 60 (base cost 60) + Disruption Pod x3 15 + Targeting Array x3 15 + Fusion Blaster x3 15 + Seeker Missile x6 60

Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 195 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 195 pts = (base cost 90 + Railgun 50 + Two Burst Cannons 10 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10 + Multi-Tracker 10 + Seeker Missile x2 20)

Now i consider this a fairly good and fairly balanced list so the CHALLENGE is to prove that

Suits are essential by highlighting a serious flaw/weakness in this list so as to show it may be accurately described as "gimped" or inferior AND to show that this weakness/flaw is due DIRECTLY to the absence of crisis suits and how this list can ONLY be fixed by crisis suits.

i of course will be acting as defence attempting to refute any and all points made if anyone of like mind wants to help me out feel free.
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 16:05   #2 (permalink)
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I'm going to try and look at this objectively, but before I attempt to critique the list I'd like you to explain how it plays, personally.
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 16:50   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exigency102 View Post
I'm going to try and look at this objectively, but before I attempt to critique the list I'd like you to explain how it plays, personally.
Ok fair enough naturally you have to adapt to certain enemies etc but generally speaking the two broadside teams will set up in cover either side of the board with best LOS posibble the 12 man firewarrior team will set up somewhere in the middle preferably with cover with the HQ and act as a small gunline.

the pathfinders will use their scout to set up in good positions as well and mark priority targets.

While the Piranha will speed forward and melta something and/or get behind targets so the pathfinders can use their seekers to rear end or sideswipe some tanks simultaneously.

The Hammerhead and devilfish will also speed forward as well to protect themselves from assault and generally stay out of the way the best they can where they will hopefully have infantry to target thanks to the broadsides/piranha/seeker missile strikes.

The firewarriors/HQ will do the same.

With the vehicles like hammerhead/devilfish/piranhna moving forward and the broadsides firewarriors staying still i also hope to surround CQC assault armies forcing them to choose between the mobile units and the stationary on their next turn.

Last edited by Antisocialnerd; 17 Feb 2011 at 17:00.
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 17:07   #4 (permalink)
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ok commenting on the thread name
in my eyes they are not essential
but they are our ONLY unit that has the ability to blatter the enemy up close (with vespids)
they are our ONLY middle class unit
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 17:46   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lokyar View Post
ok commenting on the thread name
in my eyes they are not essential
but they are our ONLY unit that has the ability to blatter the enemy up close (with vespids)
they are our ONLY middle class unit
Again the value of suits and their quality is not the issue being debated just whether they or not a list can be built without them without being "gimped"
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 19:01   #6 (permalink)
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Alright so basically I'm seeing this list having a major problem against Marines (of course). You have plenty of vehicle killing ability, but once those transports are popped, how are you stopping infantry from clobbering your lines? Pulse weapons and Railgun submunitions are in no way a reliable means to killing marines at 1, MAYBE 2 kills per Fire Warrior squad, and a single shot that scatters (that's consistently screwed me over in the past).

I know you said you hope to make them choose between your static infantry and your vehicles on the sidelines, but they're not going to. An enemy is going to have the same multi-tasking ability as you do. They'll commit assault troops to your HQ and scoring units and vehicles/tank killers to your vehicles.

And lokyar, why do you even bother? Your suits shouldn't be trying to "blatter the enemy up close." Whatever the hell that means. Also, they're our only high class unit other than Commanders. Exactly what middle class unit does Tau have? Because I'm pretty sure everything else is either junk that no-one takes (Stealth suits, Ethereals, Vespid, Sniper Drones) or low class infantry units that are little more survivable than IG (FW, PF, and Kroot).

Last edited by Exigency102; 17 Feb 2011 at 19:04.
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 19:37   #7 (permalink)
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I am very proud to see one of my posts directly made a person create a thread refuting that post.

I think Exigency has the idea here. You need more shots that are getting around that 3+ armor. The amount of points you are paying for fast attack fusions is big compared to lets say, 9 twin linked bs4 deep striking fusions. And thats if you dont want diversity of weaponry. Of course deep striking is risky, but so is moving units very fast across the board.
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 20:32   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Exigency102 View Post
Alright so basically I'm seeing this list having a major problem against Marines (of course). You have plenty of vehicle killing ability, but once those transports are popped, how are you stopping infantry from clobbering your lines? .
You'll notice that all my broadsides have twin linked plasma rifles and multitrackers at 24 inches they can take out 6 marines at 12 inches 9 and my hq also has a plasma rifle after the initial popping depending on the situation my broadsides can double up on killing marines seeker missiles are also very effective at killing marines assuming their not all used up i also have the pathfinders to act as a distraction and if needed 16 more shots

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Originally Posted by Cpt.Zanzibar View Post
I am very proud to see one of my posts directly made a person create a thread refuting that post.

I think Exigency has the idea here. You need more shots that are getting around that 3+ armor. The amount of points you are paying for fast attack fusions is big compared to lets say, 9 twin linked bs4 deep striking fusions. And thats if you dont want diversity of weaponry. Of course deep striking is risky, but so is moving units very fast across the board.
i hope i have already addressed the 3+ armour problem but as regards the fast attack i'm not paying all that just for fusion guns they are all carrying seeker missiles as well and piranha are much more effective at resisting assaults my list is well geared to taking out tanks and hopefully any long range weps that may threaten the piranha in that way i hope to make them much more survivable than teams of deepstriking suits

Last edited by Antisocialnerd; 17 Feb 2011 at 20:41.
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 20:53   #9 (permalink)
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In my opinion crisis suits, although not essential all the time, will make fights against certain armies 10x easier. (Marines and 'crons spring to mind)

Against my Sapce wolves list that actually has no vehicles in it at all, your list would have trouble. I'm not saying it would definately lose, but crisis suits would make your life a lot easier. Lets be honest, why make things hard for yourself when you don't need to.

As I said, in short, no they're not essential, but they're pretty damn handy.

I will say that my tau list only introduces crisis teams at 1500 points, before that I make do with my commander and bodyguard and even at higher points caps I only add a single monat to that.

I'll will also point out to Exigency that I take an ethereal at 2000 for the BS4 fire warriors and amusement of prefered enemy when he inevitably gets shot.
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Old 17 Feb 2011, 21:15   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KuroRyu View Post
In my opinion crisis suits, although not essential all the time, will make fights against certain armies 10x easier. (Marines and 'crons spring to mind)

Against my Sapce wolves list that actually has no vehicles in it at all, your list would have trouble. I'm not saying it would definately lose, but crisis suits would make your life a lot easier. Lets be honest, why make things hard for yourself when you don't need to.

As I said, in short, no they're not essential, but they're pretty damn handy.

I will say that my tau list only introduces crisis teams at 1500 points, before that I make do with my commander and bodyguard and even at higher points caps I only add a single monat to that.

I'll will also point out to Exigency that I take an ethereal at 2000 for the BS4 fire warriors and amusement of prefered enemy when he inevitably gets shot.
a vehicless marine army is pretty unusual and because of it your slogging it across the entire board and i've shown my broadsides are quite capable against marines as soon as they come into 24 inch range of them i'm curious to see the list if you don't mind depending on how many units you have i think i'd have a good chance i.e do you have mainly high point cost units like thunder-wolves or a pile of those more basic wolves and basic units like normal marines etc is it a "horde" type space marine army? because i will admit such a list would prove fairly difficult however that is hardly a blaring weakness that only suits could fix depending on the list type vespids could fill that gap.

also this example is fairly scenario specific as your type of list is not very common.

Last edited by Antisocialnerd; 17 Feb 2011 at 21:17.
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