Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Force Org Chart and why it exists
Closed Thread
Old 29 Jul 2005, 15:00   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,742
Default Force Org Chart and why it exists

Recently it was mentioned by another poster that the force org chart ment nothing outside of allowing armies to be competitive with each other.* This is in fact quite true, but I think one should look slightly deeper at how the force org chart is filled in by units, unit size and strengths, and overall composition of* the army in relation to itself and other armies.

A force org chart with 2 HQ, 3 heavy, 3 fast attack, and 6 troop choices allows for alot of flexibility regardless of which army you are using.* yet such a chart can also be used to better understand the strength and weakness of a force.* For example SM are typically much tougher, stronger, and better armored than Tau, so a typical unit size will be smaller.* This balances the Tau and SM troop units on the table even though the SM may have half as many troops.* This is sort of obvious and everyone relates to it very easily, however, most players don't also recognize the relationship within an armies force org chart as being representative of force composition.

While one would expect a SM army to contain less troops and vehicles than a Tau army at the same point value, each individual in the SM army will contain more abilities/skills/threats.* This is also true when examining the different units within a single army's force org chart.* Not only are there 12 FW allowed in a troop unit selection for Tau, but these 12 troops balance in potential with any other troop unit option; they also complement the other unit options.*

For example an elite unit of xv15 containing 6 troops with no upgrade will fire 18 shots at 18" St 5 ap 5 at 6 SM T4.* With a BS3, they will hit 50% of the time and wound 60% of the time (4+ hit and 3+ wound), but the SM saves on 3+ thus (60%).* 18 shots will hit 9, wounding 5.4, and generate 3.2 saves.* So 18 shots will kill 2 SM.

12 FW firing 12 shots at 30" st5 ap5 do 6 hits, 4 wounds, and generate 2.4 saves.* So 12 shots kill 2 SM.

The chances of killing an additional SM with luck sides with the stealth, but is balanced with the additional 12" of range by the FW.

Each unit will, depending upon the battlefield role, produce similar results to any other unit.* We must compare apples to apples however, as comparing drones to hammerheads is making a false comparison between two different battlefield roles.* yet comparing drones to pathfinders and hammerheads to broadsides are viable comparisons.* The results are going to vary within statistical tolerances.* Hammerheads fire one RG or broadsides firing one TL RG will each statistically produce the same results with a better chance of hiting going to the BS but the ability of the HH to move (thus reducing damage to glancing hits) offset the variation.

This is why the limitations on unit sizes within the force org chart exists.* It is also why Cadre (army) composition can be derived directly from the force organization chart to determine how (what percentages) the army should be developed as designed by GW.

Of course units used outside of the design context will skew the odds.* For example using a TL PR and MP on a crisis suit to shoot SM will produce a higher result, as these weapons were not designed for infantry targets.* Same if one uses a RGun to shoot SM.* The odds can be reduced the other direction by using things like burst cannon and pulse rifles against vehicles.

Basically, the force org chart is the baseline from which GW designed all armies, and the number of troops and their corresponding abilities are crossleveled both within the army itself and between armies.

Comments, concerns, questioins?

Wanax
Shaso Wanax is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 15:09   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Your computer
Posts: 1,002
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

Quote:
(4+ hit and 4+ wound),
4+ to hit and 3+ to wound.
__________________
? ? ?
Subzero is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 15:09   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,742
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subzero
Quote:
(4+ hit and 4+ wound),
4+ to hit and 3+ to wound.
Doh!

I'll edit, thanks
Wanax
Shaso Wanax is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 15:45   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bristol, England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

Force Organsation charts are there for mostly one reason: to limit powergamers. Back in the day (2nd Edition) you could take nothing but Heavy Weapon squads or Terminators, with tons of uber characters running around. As you can imagine, it was horrible for people who wanted to have balanced games.

Now there's some control over such things, but it still runs rampant sometimes - not much we can really do about that, unless we start bringing back army percentage limits. Not a bad idea for tournaments, but for the average game it's a bit much to work out every game!

Personally I think each army should have their own Force Org charts. As it is I never have enough Troop choices for my Imperial guard, and never use my 2nd HQ choice or any Elite or Fast Attack choices!

~Andromidius
__________________
Tactica Imperial Guard: Conscripts
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=9751.0
Andromidius is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 15:57   #5 (permalink)
42
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Haddenham, Aylesbury, Bucks, England
Posts: 4,098
Send a message via MSN to 42
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

Thats a good point - a different FoC for each race. IMO this would make sense as I see the point of having a force organisation chart is to make sure armies fielded are something like what they would be in ''real life'' on the battlefield. Of course there is always room to exploit the FoC, but it is a good idea...I would also suggest limiting the number of choices for certain points limits as in the WFB system - i.e 1000pts - 0-1 HQ, 0-4 TROOPS, 0-2 ELITE, 0-2 FAST, 0-2 HEAVY.

--42
__________________
42 is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 16:47   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,742
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

Interesting that the org chart could be different for each race, but if you read my post more carefully I think I make the point that it IS different for each race based on the number of troops allowed in each unit.

so rather than trying to balance forces with X number of troop units in this army and Y number of troop units in that army--each unit containing 10 soldiers--it is configured exactly the opposite to achieve the exact same result. X number of troop units in each army with army Q getting 12 troops per unit and army R getting 6 troops per unit. it really works out the same.

Wanax
Shaso Wanax is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 16:52   #7 (permalink)
42
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Haddenham, Aylesbury, Bucks, England
Posts: 4,098
Send a message via MSN to 42
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

I was replying to Andromidus actually -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromidius

Personally I think each army should have their own Force Org charts.*
But yes I agree with you there, however some armies have very wide limits on the amount of troops which unbalances things - for example eldar gaurdians being 5-20 meaning you can have a 5 man team with a star cannon or bright lance. With Tau there is also the potential to have 2 six man fire warrior teams then max out on battlesuits and the like - however not many seem to do this as we have been gifted with such a good basic troop anyway!

--42
__________________
42 is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 16:57   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,742
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

42 it is very true that the lower the point level, the easier it is to do the powergamer thing. However, when I look at large cheap armies like IG and nids, above 1500 they start scratching for units. It makes it harder to ignore the FOC once you start running out of slots.

With my Tau right now, for example, I am running 3 units of 1x xv8 team leader each. Of course, I also play at 1000 points or less. I will have to start taking more crisis per team once I go above 1000 points just to have slots. Above 1500 the same thing happens to me in troop slots.

Basically, we agree. I wasn't commenting directly to your post, but in general to the direction of the thread.

Wanax
Shaso Wanax is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 17:10   #9 (permalink)
42
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Haddenham, Aylesbury, Bucks, England
Posts: 4,098
Send a message via MSN to 42
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

I get what you mean about the Battlesuit dillemma, and I know it happens to other races. The problem is that, while you only want more elite slots for single battlesuits, others may use this just to max out on battlesuit teams if the restriction is limited. Basically it would work great to create more balanced, fluffy and personal armies, but the only problem is the sad truth that it would just be exploited by some people...

It could work however in a small gaming group if you get your opponents to give you permission if they see fit, and you could work little house rules like that into your gaming.

--42
__________________
42 is offline  
Old 29 Jul 2005, 18:29   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bristol, England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: Force Org Chart and why it exists

God help me when I start playing 1500pts+ games with my Tau/Guard - I love troops! I made up a 1500pts list for my Imperial Guard, and I used all 6 Troop Slots. To get to 2000pts I'd have to max them all out!

But then I ask for it really, with my love of infantry. It shouldn't be quite so bad with Tau, since I like suits as well.

~Andromidius
__________________
Tactica Imperial Guard: Conscripts
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=9751.0
Andromidius is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tau and the Force Org chart Tyndmyr Tau 24 21 Feb 2007 02:52
what force organization chart should we add to shasocastris Tau Army Lists 6 21 Oct 2006 13:46
Confusing LATD Force Org. Chart mountaincycle661 Forces of Chaos 1 08 Sep 2006 19:48
Nul'vior hunter Cadre - Full Force organization Chart: Improvement or downgrade? nulvior Tau Army Lists 3 06 Aug 2006 13:24
Alternate Force Organization Chart Falstead General 40K 32 18 May 2006 16:06