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What I have found works well against nids
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Old 20 Jul 2005, 23:28   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default What I have found works well against nids

What do you usually get when you face nids? Alot more little nasties than big guys right? They also move very quickly too. This allows them to get into cover if they dont assult you first turn. As a Tau army we need to find ways to stem the hord and I think i have a solution. Full Mech (dah......why would you have static against nids) plus 3 x 2 man crisis teams with BST cannons and flamers deep striking.

Picture this (i have used this a few times against nids and it has worked well)

NIDS TURN 1 - Tons of nid nasties advance on you mech tau force first turn ( they have nothing to assult as you are in the back of your deployment zone with all your tanks and fishes.

TAU TURN 1 - You mobilize your fishes behind Hammer heads to block the nids assulting them next turn. You then lay all fire power at your dissposal into the nids that have rending claws preventing any of your vehicles bitting the dust.

NIDS TURN 2 - they continue advancing hopefully not able to do any damage in assult as you have taken the steps to prevent this.

TAU TURN 2 - You redeploy again with your Tanks to mobilize against any Big nasties and any Rending claws guys left. Then your 3 x 2 Crisis team dropp in from the skys behind enemy lines blasting away at the hoard of Gaunts with burst cannons and flamers...........Then you assult........What did you say? Tau assult nids? Thats suicide.

Yes it is but let me explain.....if you assult them then they dont get the bonus from charging they dont get a chance to piles tons of guys into the one assult ( they will only be able to hit you with engaged models) thus you will only suffer minor damage if any. This will then prevent them from advancing again in the following turn allowing you too redeploy all your fire wariors for the crushing blow agains the synapse units and whats left of the small nasties.

In this scenario a 2 man deepstriking crisis tem with flamers and burst cannons get 6 burst shots two flamer template shots which can usually kill about 8 gaunts in a go each evan in cover, and 6 attacks on the charge which negates their charge attacks.

I have tried this a few times and it has worked rather well. You gust have to accept the fact that your crisis suits are going to die. But how they die is your choice. I think they would rather die for the Greater good.

What do you all think?
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 03:17   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

yeah I think you are exactly correct with everything you say.......... Good work Kesalin you should be awarded for that post.
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 04:24   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

*coughs* Hmm. Full mech at some level also lacks the firepower to more fully ground down the nid horde swarming you.

Deep striking crisis suits mean you start the game against a mobile and dealdy opponent with a significant portion of your firepower off the board until turn two or three rather than making a contribution before that. You can expect half of the time to get two of your three on turn two and to have sent them all out by turn four.

Also your suits are optimised to be close enough for deadly nids to assault/suicidal. Deploying Missle pods allows you to keep scoring and damaging units at a healthy distance.

Your heads can be shot down or clawed down if they are far enough foreward to hide a second skimmer behind and the skimming fish assaulted or shot as well.

A first turn assault is possible. A good preperation for such may be a unit of kroot with 2 full kroot hound units and 3 kroot oxen in their number.

A kroot heavy list can put out the volume of shots and cc competence nessecary for the supporting tau to wipe out your enemies.

Hoping your enemy won't be able to do what his army is built for isn't the best stratefy your force elements should be spread apart enough to prevent consolidation from one massacre to another. If you structure units to fall apart/fall back quickly after being assaulted you can deny your opponent the protection of being in assault on your turn.
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 05:48   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick

Deep striking crisis suits mean you start the game against a mobile and dealdy opponent with a significant portion of your firepower off the board until turn two or three rather than making a contribution before that. You can expect half of the time to get two of your three on turn two and to have sent them all out by turn four.
Hammer heads provide all the support you really need for the first 2 turns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
Also your suits are optimised to be close enough for deadly nids to assault/suicidal.* Deploying Missle pods allows you to keep scoring and damaging units at a healthy distance.
Did you even read my post? thats the whole point. If you charge them you limit the number of little nasties in assult and you lock them for a turn while maximising the damage you can do before your unit dies. Its safe to say that against nids most crisis suits will be caught and killed in the end. YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THE CRISIS WILL DIE. This will allow you to put them to better use, like going out in a blaze of fire and burst cannon fury right up close rather than shelling out 2 shots at range that does little against a swarm of 20 models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
Your heads can be shot down or clawed down if they are far enough foreward to hide a second skimmer behind and the skimming fish assaulted or shot as well.
Again, did you read my post? Cause I don't think you did. I said you have to focus fire on these types of units from the start while trying to move into better posiitons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
A first turn assault is possible. A good preperation for such may be a unit of kroot with 2 full kroot hound units and 3 kroot oxen in their number.
Thats what i said in the post. Kroot wont do much to Nids. They will attack last if there are any left. They also have to give up shooting if they want to assult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
A kroot heavy list can put out the volume of shots and cc competence nessecary for the supporting tau to wipe out your enemies.
Agreed.....however they are much slower than nids and will be easily swarmed and destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
Hoping your enemy won't be able to do what his army is built for isn't the best stratefy your force elements should be spread apart enough to prevent consolidation from one massacre to another. If you structure units to fall apart/fall back quickly after being assaulted you can deny your opponent the protection of being in assault on your turn.
I REALLY DONT THINK YOU EVAN BOTHERED TO READ MY POST.........I didnt ever say that that I would hope his army could not do what its built for . IN FACT I AM BETTING IT WILL DO WHAT ITS BUILT FOR.

Please make sure you read a post before replying with assumptions.
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 07:08   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

I read your post, three times in fact I even read your self-congratulatory post that followed and interpreted it as an invitation for discussion of any perceivable faults or alternatives.

I disagree with your first counter point about having enough support from the hammer heads, We disagree on how much support is enough. To toss 30-15% of my army (depending on point size of the game) on a gamble that can fall at a perfect range to employ strategic weaponry rather than falling into the enemy to be killed or to far away to make the desired impact or by chance off the board.

The theory behind a mech tau force is to preserve points and killing power I do not have to accept that the crisis suits will die. I was not aware that deep striking units could charge on the turn that they fell from the sky.

There are cheaper throw away units like say potentially pinning minimized drone squadrons striking at initiative four. Elite experienced veterans going down like that isn't the best outcome for them.

In terms of your hammer heads I'm trying to say we won't always get the first turn or the optimal terrain deployment, you can count on losing a skimmer a turn against a vehicle competent nid player. They have new nasty shooters that when placed can pick the back of your deployment zone if playing on the long end of a 4 by 6 table.

The kroot share the same initiative as your crisis suits suicide squad and with hounds and numbers the initiative is less of an issue (a non issue if he doesn't have flesh hooks on the squad you infiltrated kroot next to). I'd count on them to inflict more harm on a gaunt squad than the blaze of Glory elites and provide you with more tactical options from turn one.

Kroot are slower than nids but post a cheap and comparable model count for you to work your army around. Their guns are potent and numerous, their command of terrain unparalleled. You can field form 10 to 100 carnivores and the nids are likely the one army where their brand of volume and quality firepower shines the most.
Giving up shooting for kroot means they have three ws 4 str 4 attacks on the charge per model rather than one from afar or 2 up close, hard to judge weather that is positive or negative. There is a possibility of halting an advance or crushing a foe entirely. Enabling you to focus fire elsewhere.

The hope comment was based on your turn 2 "they continue to advance hopefully not being able to do any damage in assult as you have taken steps to prevent this."

Act as if the nids will be in your line on turn one, and bringing in successively deadlier assault troops with each following turn.
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 07:19   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

Ok, just a little observation first. Double posting on your own topic? Arrogance is a pungent cologne. So maybe just let that little ego valve out a bit, wait for your head to deflate then breathe and try again.

You tactic against 'nids is perfectly viable. I have in fact seen 'nids defeated by such a manoeuvre. One thing most non-Tau 40k players will assume is that nobody will assault with their troops. It just isn't the brightest idea to do on paper, but we don't play on paper do we? I find that a well timed assault from a supposed 'weak' unit can do enough psychological harm to an opponent for them to lose the initiative.

The only thing I can see being a flaw of sorts is an appearance of a happy Broodlord and his crew of miscreants popping in and scaring your initial deployment off the board... I have seen it happen more than once since the new Codex. Of course with the new 'dex I believe the way we all knew 'nids will be tested as more people try out different combinations, so as long as you only face a 'typical' hoard, yeah, you'll probably have success. Too bad 'typical' hoards are getting rarer buddy.
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 07:29   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesalin
Then you assult........What did you say? Tau assult nids? Thats suicide.
It's not just suicide it's also not legal to assault on the same turn you deep strike.

Since the assault and the benefits it provides are central to this tactic, you should re-think it.

I can see sacrificing a monat suit with TL fusion to go after a big tank, but over 100 points in Tau elites sacrificed to go after a horde in this way does not seem prudent. Remember you also can't use your jet pack assault move when you deep strike in, so to be in range to use those flamers will mean certain death next turn.
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 09:08   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

You got me with the deep strike thing........... :'( ???...Ive been cheating and apologizing to the dude I played last.

The double posting was so that I didn't have a zero count in the reply column. It was meant to be a laugh.

sorry trick :'(
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 09:44   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

Oh, yeah, Infiltrated kroot can kill pretty much anything, including large broods (well, maybe not a HT or Broodlord.....). They can camp in forrest get a nice 4+ or 5+ cover save, and shoot the hell out of units which CAN'T SHOOT BACK! Pluss, with luck they won't be able to be charged, so if anyone gets too close, you can charge them! 90+ attacks from a maxed out Kroot squad with Hounds and Ox is nothing to sniff at.

(My math should be right......3 attacks per kroot. 1 normal, one for charging, one for close combat weapon. 3 per Hound. 2 normal, one for charging. I think it's 4 per Ox.....3 normal, one for charging....Correct me if i'm wrong, i don't have my Codex handy! that makes......102 attacks!!!!! for 450 pts. or 300 without the Oxes. oh, yeah, how many hounds again? I used 10 in this)
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Old 21 Jul 2005, 09:51   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: What I have found works well against nids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesalin
yeah I think you are exactly correct with everything you say.......... Good work Kesalin you should be awarded for that post.
And you should be smited for this one. Do not double-post, and do not spam. I may not be so lenient with you next time.
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