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Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg
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Old 15 Jul 2005, 10:03   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 9
Default Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg

Hello all.
Quick summary of current situation. I play for the Greater Good and my brother plays for the Greater Evil ( Us space marines have our own rules). I have now played him 5 times and only lost the first game. We play so far just on our 5 X 2 dining table.
He deep strikes or reserves everything so basically I end up with most if not all of his units jumping into my deployment zone by turn 3 or 4 at latest. He says this is all legal and that sound about right, but he plays using drop pod rule and claims he doesn't need an actual model for it.

Rough Army lists are as follows:

Space Marines :
3 Assault squads of 10 each with Sergent. Power weapons and bolters.
1 Command Squad
2 Tactical Squad
All varios configs with weapons etc but basics is that they hurt a lot in close combat.

Tau
Shas'o TLPL MP MT
2 Bodyguards Fireknife
2 squads of 12 Fire Warriors each, leader
1 squad of 8 Fire Warriors, leader
2 Broadsides TLRG SM
2 Ion heads
Recently added 5 Pathfinders and Devilfish.

Each game basically goes.
SM : Droppod or Deapstrike out of reserve turn 2, fire once each, now my go.
Tau : Shoot everything taking down as many as possible
SM : Drop pod or deepstrke whats left, assault with first squads
Tau : Hope like hell I kill some each turn and fire all else at any non engaged enemy
SM and Tau : Repeat basically till I wipe last enemy from board.

We basically play cleanse Omega so just a slugfest. I always keep all units as far a part as possible.

Questions ( sorry bout the length ).
Why is it easy to beat him ?
Would he better using vehicles and hiding in cover moving up the board gradually ?
Do many other SM players do it this way ?

Is getting boring really and he wont change his strategy, just making excuses like "I need more Terminators" or "We need a bigger board"

Suggestions please people and advice on when I eventually play others. I am playing this repeatedly to get used to rules and memorize facts etc as I work full time..lol.

Thanks in advance everyone.
Damon



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Old 15 Jul 2005, 16:21   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 506
Default Re: Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg

Well, first of all, you have to have a model to represent the drop pods. You're friend might not know it, but he's shortchanging himself because of it. He needs to pay the points for the pod, then put a model out for them. They're armoured hulks too, so can be cover, as well as a small firebase, as it has a storm bolter on it (I think). Now, I presume he DSs the Assaults, and pods the Tact and the Command squad, right? Then he'd need three pods for the non-assault SMurfs. I think that'll be 150 pts, so he'd need to change the list a bit.

Now, the prime reason why your friend's losing, is simply because of the nature of drop armies. They come in groups. A normal army like yours would have everything out before turn one. For him, you have two turns to move around to optimal position before they start falling, and when they do, they don't do much for two reasons. The first is that there arn't many of them to fall every turn. The second is that DSing means that you can't do a certain thing that makes assault marines so good. They can't assault. If you DS Termies with Auto-cannons then it's a bit different, and the same with three Dreadnoughts.
Basically, his tactics are the main problem, as I bet he always DSs into the open, where you get to shoot him down every time before he can move, right? It's not because you're playing on too small of a field. It's because you're playing on such a restrictive one, as well as the fact that he can't take advantage of DSing with what he has.
First, Assault Marines aren't good DSers, I believe. They're great at running across the board, then assaulting turn two or three. That's what they're made for. Ranged weapon specialists are better at DSing since they don't have to assault to be at maximum efficiency.
Second, a 5x2 board is a little skewed in favor for you, as there is no way to DS into a really good position as you can cover every avenue near your forces, you he'd be forced to DS infront of the bulk of your forces, and get chewed up quickly.

My personal suggestions is if he wants a DS army, he needs to stop DSing his assault marines, and buy a bunch of Drop Pods, then buy a few Dreadnoughts. Three Dreadnoughts in drop pods can do wonders against most armies. He can pop them out in cover, or simply use the pods as cover and get hulled down for his Dreadnoughts, then start shooting like mad with those Heavy bolters, Missile pods, whatever.
Remember, that DSing is good for only two things. Psudo infiltrating on turn two or three into cover, or getting ranged specialists into optimal position before they can get shot up. SMurfs are better at taking advantage of the second, so I'd say your friend should concentrate on that, and stop using the DS feature of Assault marines. They're Assaulters, and when they can't assault, there's something wrong.
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Old 16 Jul 2005, 01:04   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Default Re: Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg

Hello
Yes that confirms my thoughts based on the little I know of SM. I think it would be more fun if he just had a combination army. A few heavy tanks or Dreadnoughts, ranged weapons and DS squads too. Just a bit of a range of units to use to spread my forces thin coping with different fronts.
Anyway the things I have learnt are as have been mentioned here on the forum :
Fire Warriors and more Fire Warriors
Ion Cannons are great gainst these SM
Fireknife works wonders, especially Plasma.

Thanks for your infomation and I will inform him that he need the drop pod models to play them.
Any idea where in his codex or rule book that is ?

Damon
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Old 16 Jul 2005, 06:02   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg

Drop pods are on P35 in the SMurf codex (the 4th Ed version).
Just tell your friend that he needs the drop pods as it says, not to DS his Assault Marines, and use a Dreadnought or two. No matter how he ends up using the Dread, it'll make his army more effective, as long as it's acutally doing something. Footslogging a Dread the entire game isn't a very good way of spendind 150 pts, but it is better than losing that many points in DSed Assault Marines that got killed the the turn they appeared.
Make sure he knows that DSing is purely for slower units so they can get closer to the enemy lines quickly. DSing Assault Marines are only good if you get three squads of them on a 6x6 table on the same turn or something. Fast units that can move 12" can't take much advantage of the DSing, as there's a decent chance that they end up reaching the enemy quicker by just moving than DSing, especially on a small board.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
If you split an Immortal in half, which half would stay alive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice
She said she can't die! She's survive even if you roast her or bake her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Should we try to boil her or fry her instead?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokou
It's foolish for people to go out on a night like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimu
Who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokou
I'm talking about you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimu
No, I'm not asking who's a fool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukari
So you're admitting to being a fool?
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Old 16 Jul 2005, 10:15   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 9
Default Re: Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg

Thanks again for that.
It was getting so it was boring to play and I just said well lets just put all our units in the middle of the table and see what happens. If he does as you advise then I am sure it will be more of a fun game and he will have more chance of winning. He was DS near edge of table last game just behind a squad and between the ionheads. He rolled to scatter and ended up off the board. Another unit scattered straight into a squad of men and as per rules his squad died. Waste of time really but it is helping me get more familiar with game play.

With the list I posted for Tau in first message, if I added two DF for two of the FW units I could go seme mobile so how would I use them best ?

Once again your help is appreciated. I have my army fully painted now, thanks mainly to my wife who has a steadier hand and a good color sense. I may post pictures at some stage, just nervous what others will think..lol.

Thanks in advance for your direct help and succinct answers

Damon
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Old 16 Jul 2005, 15:54   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Posts: 506
Default Re: Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg

Well, for your army specifically, I'd have to say that you should remove the bodygaurds, and place them as separate elite slots. That way, to target your Crisis suits, your opponent would have to shoot everything at one, and then assalut another, or something. Whichever way, your opponent will be spending much more time than if they were together to take all of the Crisis down, as a lot of the attacks will end up being wasted when the Crisis suit he attacked died in a third of the number of attacks he make.
Devil Fishes are very good choices if you want your army to be mobile. How you would use them is up to you, as there are many different strategies available, however, the most effective ones I know are FoF, and "Getaway". FoF, or Fish of Fury, is the use of a DF to get your FWs close up to an enemy squad and rapid fire into them. This sigificantly increases the offensive capacity of a single squad, as it's now doing double the number of attacks it would usually make. Also, this strategy includes heavy use of the DF as it is used as a barrier to prevent enemy squads from assaulting the FWs. Just keep the DF very close, and between the FWs and the target squad.
The other strategy is simply to just shoot your units for all they're worth, the mount up and go somewhere else when the enemy gets too close. After this, you can proceed to the ususal FoF, or any other strategy you want.
Just remember that a lot of strategies available to Tau are situation specific, so make sure the time you use them is the best possible time you can find to use them.

Also, I just noticed, but Assault Marines can't carry power weapons. The sergent can, if it has Terminator Honours (it's an upgrade), but otherwise, they can't. Just a heads up.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
If you split an Immortal in half, which half would stay alive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice
She said she can't die! She's survive even if you roast her or bake her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Should we try to boil her or fry her instead?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokou
It's foolish for people to go out on a night like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimu
Who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokou
I'm talking about you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimu
No, I'm not asking who's a fool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukari
So you're admitting to being a fool?
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Old 16 Jul 2005, 18:02   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 140
Default Re: Tau vs Space Marines suggestions please for existing army. Warning long msg

Agreed, with three assault squads, he should be able to get into cc through normal movement before you can destroy them, assuming they don't move toward you piecemeal.

Whenever I fight one assault squad, it usually dies 12"-8" away from my soft underbelly (or the sergeant and his plasma toting lacky make it to my lines), and thats with consentrated Tau firepower.
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