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Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 14:16   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2I6r9odAw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ2lJLCLw50


I was youtube surfing last night after a game, and I came across these two videos. The first shows how to 'hit and run' with tau in a Devilfish and 8 Carbine warriors, while the second shows the 'Fish of Fury' move with 12 Rifle Warriors.

The first vid says that each time the Fire Warriors shot they will get 1 or 2 marines, and the marines will move up, and get 1 or 2 Tau back. I ran the numbers and exactly average rolls will get you 1.3333 Marines killed and 2 Fire Warriors killed. The video also claims that they wouldn't dare shoot at the BACK ARMOR of your devilfish because the lined up fire warriors give it a cover save.

The second video shows how to use your Devilfish drones and chassis to block assaults while rapid firing your Pulse Rifles into a squad. This guy actually rolls, but out of 7 flamer hits, kills 1 fire warrior :-\. Though this video does state that this tactic was best in 4th Ed.


Personaly I would rather drop the squad down to 6 Warriors, and add some Wargear to the Fish, not pop out my sqishy-squishy fire warriors to be shot up.

What I need clarified, is do these guys have little grasp of Tau, no idea what the numbers are, or are actually making sense to everyone but me ? :P
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 14:39   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

Well, depending on how he mounted the DF I could see tall FW's giving it a cover save (which is should already have at that range from a DP...).

However if his FW's are all that high normally, I can't see them doing a FoF well.

The rolling sounds like a one-off, were I to do a series I'd likely just provide the math instead of worrying about rolling in front of a camera. That way no one could rightfully say the tactics were swayed by the unusual dice rolls they see.
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 20:40   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

The first tactica wasn't so bad. The second one did specifically say that the tactic had it's heyday in 4th edition. The first tactic is actually something the the Eldar have been enjoying since they got their new dex in 4th edition. You can drop dire avengers from the back of a wave serpent, then you blade storm from 18" away. If anything is left of your opponent then you can hop back into your serpent, and move 12" to 24" away in your next turn. This will allow you to hop back out and blade storm again in the following turn.

The Eldar version of this tactic is superior in every way shape and form. Their vehicles are faster and harder to kill. The dire avengers may only have strength 4 shooting but they're hitting on 3's and they get 30 shots when bladestorming instead of a maximum of 12 shots. They can also move MUCH farther away in the following turn to ensure a safe retreat and if need be they have several excellent close combat choices to speed bump enemy troops that are moving in too close.

Granted a unit of dire avengers w/ exarch and a wave serpent is going to cost you around 300 points. Where a unit of fire warriors in a devilfish will usually cost you around 200 points. I'm just saying that the Dire avengers are so much better at this tactic that it makes up the difference in points. It still wasn't a bad idea.
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 21:24   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

The first type of tactic would work okay if each army only used one or two units each.

In practice something else is going to shoot at the skimmer, the Marines are going to move into Rapid Fire range. If the Skimmer can't move in its own turn, the Tau unit might take out a few more Marines, but after that the Marine unit will probably double-charge the survivors, getting the Power Fist in contact with the skimmer and putting the rest of the attacks into the Fire Warriors.

This is not really a "Tau" tactic. It is just an illustration of the advantage a unit in a transport with 18" weapons has over a foot-slogging unit if there are no other units close enough to effect either. Dire Avengers can do it more effectively, since they can use Bladestorm and then recharge in the tank. What I would take away from it is just the reminder that you can get back into a transport if you need to.
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 21:49   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

Yeah, I like BoW and what they do but I wasn't entirely sold on that Tau video they posted. It doesn't really work in practice, not against people who know what they're doing.
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 23:29   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

I watched part of the first video, so I think I understand the tactics involved. I guess that's as good a way to use carbine fire warriors as any, but I find the rifles superior in every way. His claim of the cover save for the devilfish from the fire warriors in the way is questionable, but as low as that one was skimming, he's probably right. The problem is that a devilfish skimming that low is useless for Fish of Fury and similar firing under it tricks. Mount your 'fish on tall stands. Still, I would NEVER face a devilfish backwards like that. When facing bolters, the single point of armor difference between the side and rear of the 'fish is the difference between being glanceable and being invulnerable. Do it from the side hatches or not at all! The problem with the tactic, while it does save you from the assault, is that fire warriors are not rugged enough to exchange multiple barrages of fire like that. In my experience, fire warriors have to hit once with overwhelming force. If there is much of anything left when they're done firing, they are likely dead even if it's ranged fire coming at them.

I don't know how the following math is going to come out ahead of time, but lets run it with typical size squads: 12 carbine fire warriors vs 10 standard space marines. Fire warriors hop out (they could walk just as easily for this example) and fire 12 shots. 6 hit, 4 wound, 1.3 marines fail their saves. Technically, that's a pinning check, but these are marines so I'm going to assume they pass. Marines walk up and rapid-fire. There are most likely 9 of them left, so they fire 18 shots, 12 hit, 8 wound, and 4 fire warriors die. We now take the first morale check, we have lost 1/3 of the squad, and they have lost between 10 and 20 percent of theirs. Yes, we can get back in the transport without having been assaulted, but we have lost more than we gained.

Maybe in the next codex the pulse carbine will have some value, but right now it's pretty useless. If the marines are slogging through difficult terrain or there are other things in the way the carbine might show some advantage, or against low leadership troops where pinning is a factor it's not too bad, but both those scenarios are rare enough that the only place I take carbines is where I don't have a choice (gun drones on piranhas or the alternate weapon for pathfinders). I think the best use of the carbines, although I haven't tried this, is to station a small squad of gun drones behind or to the side of a full pulse rifle fire warrior squad. The fire warriors will hold still until the marines (who are being considerate enough to walk in this case) cross the magic 18 inch line. The fire warriors will walk up to 12 inches away and rapid fire while the gun drones will move up, shoot, and hop in front of the fire warriors to block the assault.

The second tactic, which I did not watch, sounds better. Gun drones can be used to block the assault, as I described above. The only problem is that they are at least as expensive as most of the units you could be shielding. Still, they have high enough initiative that they might actually swing where tau infantry are usually wiped before they figure out how to draw their knives.
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 23:29   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

Khanaris has an excellent point of course. The fire warriors will shoot from 18" away and wont get charged by the space marines, but the space marines could just choose to stay still and fire their free missile launcher into the rear armor of the fish. At which point a Predator tank sitting somewhere in their rear lines will fire it's auto-cannons and heavy bolters into the fire warrior squad and completely maul them. But again, it's not the worst tactica I've ever seen.
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Old 17 Feb 2010, 19:54   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

My main problem with tactic #1 is that the devilfish will NOT get a screening cover save, like a normal unit would.. because its a vehicle, and vehicles have to have 50% or more of their chassis obscured to get the vehicle version of cover: obscured... right? And I just dont think firewarriors are tall enough.

Well, thats the problem with a game so complex as 40k.. there are so many variables and situational puzzles to take into account when you talk about anything, that once you start a discussion, it inevitably will grow into "if-then-but-except" tangled web of possibilities.

For instace, regarding the #1 again, it is VERY important that he should have mentioned Fleet in that tactical situation. A new or inexperienced player may watch that video, and learn (mistakenly) that all units that run then cannot asault that turn. Well, if he took that knowledge and tried this against Eldar or Hormagaunts.. or.. whoever else that may have Fleet.. he would have a nasty suprise in store.. wouldnt he? Then theres jump infantry to think about as well...

And he could have talked about 8 pathfinders markerlighting that unit, and giving it -4 or -5 leadership for a pinning test with those mechanized carbines

.. and so on and so on. Thats what I mean by "complex". No tactica nor video presenter with a 10 minute time limit can possbily cover all the implications.. but, if we take the original question about carbine FW in a devilfish tactis- he did answer it pretty well all in all. Its also important to realize that not all who watch that video knows as much as you and I may know, and that that video is truly helpfull from that standpoint.

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[side note]

BoW does well, but is not perfect by any means. My biggest rules oops that they did was "tank shocking mycetic spores"- where they said a vehicle would auto kill it because it was immobile.... missing the fact that the mycetic spore is a monsterous creature, with an A stat in its profile- and is fearless as well... so that if a landraider tried a tank shock, it would get a Monsterous Creature Death or Glory swipe at its nose.... But hey! it takes some cojones to make a video and put it out there even when they know some of their stuff may very well be in error. So theyre alright in my book.
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Old 17 Feb 2010, 20:40   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaban


BoW does well, but is not perfect by any means. My biggest rules oops that they did was "tank shocking mycetic spores"- where they said a vehicle would auto kill it because it was immobile.... missing the fact that the mycetic spore is a monsterous creature, with an A stat in its profile- and is fearless as well... so that if a landraider tried a tank shock, it would get a Monsterous Creature Death or Glory swipe at its nose.... But hey! it takes some cojones to make a video and put it out there even when they know some of their stuff may very well be in error. So theyre alright in my book.

Hmmm thats an interesting one - The spore is Fearless so could make a Death or Glory with its S6 Weapon and gets 2D6 to Penertrate....so would need to get 7 on 2d6 (average role) to glance a Hammerhead, (with a minimal chance of stopping the tank (would need to roll a 6) or 8 to penertrate....or it could jus chose to let the Tank move through as if it was not there (it does not have to Death or Glory).

The Question is....What happens if the Tank finishes its movement within he Spore....The Spore cannot move aside (And it does not have to Death or Glory) - So if it does not D+G, but elects to let the Tank move through, and the Tank ends up parked on top of it...what happens?...It cant move, and it cant be within 1 inch of you - Would it be counted as shoved aside by the Tank (so an enforced move [even though it technically cant] or would it be counted as destroyed? - Or would you have to count it as ramming? in which case it would take a strength 10 Hit as it has no Armour Value - and be Instant Deathed....
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Old 17 Feb 2010, 20:55   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau 'Tactics Videos' with questionable 'Tactics'

Since you can't move out of the way, I would imagine that you'd get your Death or Glory attempt, which if failed would kill the spore by RAI.

Though, I doubt it's that clean in the RAW, you bring up another reason why the Tyranids need to hurry up with their FAQ. :P
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