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Dealing With Ordinance
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 01:40   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Dealing With Ordinance

As I mentioned in a battle reports I posted earlier, ordinance is pretty popular around here. Da Orks is using looted Leman Russes, We've got a mechanised Guard player who's got his Russes and Basilisks, and even the Blood Angels player uses a small tank which sports a very vicious ordinance marker weapon at about 24 inches.

Though I'd love to "just blow it up", I find my first few turns are spent trying to eliminate fast moving transports, assault troops, and their bigger guns which pose greater threat to my hammerhead. Additionally, finding line of sight to some of these buggers can be a real pain in the butt, as their indirect fire lets them place their tank right up against a building (How they get half-decent accuracy firing at a 89 degree angle is beyond me), or behind a wall of other tank chasis.

The Guard player, specifically, seems to like "turtling up" in cleanse missions, where he blocks most line of sight into his table quarter with cheap chimeras, trys to get all enemy scoring units down to 1/2 strength so they can't contest, then moves a tank (with troops) a few inches forward on the last turn to claim.

Next game I'll be better prepared, and will be able to focus on one point in the line better, and perhaps I'll be able to do more than glance with 20+ missile pod shots over the course of the game... But still, it brings me to the issue at hand.

How do you deal with Ordinance when your opponent is adept at preserving their weapons (Or circumstance has made it very difficult).

Are there any ideal troop formations within coherency that minimize the number of troops that can be templated, without breaking coherency?

How do you field Kroot effectively, or do you field them at all? High squad numbers, and small forests, means a lot of crowding to get in there for the improved cover. Small squads means they're easier to whittle down to half, making them useless for holding quarters.

Dropping in a Fusion Blaster suit can work, but it's still dodgy. I'd rather try and find a solution that's reliable rather than optimistic.

The situation is interesting, as the Guard army is fairly static, but doesn't have extreme offensive firepower when it comes to doing much other than killing troops. It keeps a lot of basic grunts in transports ready for rapid deployment, but tend's to preserve them, rather than moving out agressively into cover, etc.

So again. Any lesser known tips about dealing with ordinance, when destroying it is not a feasible task?
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 02:07   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

Yawgmoth:

I think what you'll probably hear from most people are two phrases:

Devilfish
Death Rain

The Devilfish makes you very resilient to ordinance attacks, for obvious reasons, while keeping the soft tauy interior nice and clean, ready to spray hot plasma death into the ranks of puny human creatures. The fish will rarely take a hit and even then, will probably never even be glanced by ordnance, so you can zoom straight up where you need to and get those Fire Warriors where they need to be.

Death Rain is, in my opinion, the best Crisis suit you could take in 40k in an "over all" sense. 3 Death Rain pattern Crisis Suits (Twin-linked Missile Pods; Target Locks) can unload into tanks from the side/rear and do the job fantastically without using the boshy Fusion. Take 6 of them and you have some serious tank lock down. A single squad can split their fire into 2 tanks and probably bust them both from the side/rear, or you could attempt 3 targets and possibly do it too. The more you take, the more tanks will suffer. They're especially good for taking out those static Russ armies that are hard from the front, but take it pretty willingly from the side and from behind when you are packing two missiles per suit, twin-linked no doubt.

So, try a mounted mechanized army with a few deep striking missile pod suits, with some hammerheads for good measure.
If you need a static element to bust him, the XV-88 is pretty at taking hits from ordinance since their save keeps them save from it, which could give you a way to crack some armor open, but beware of lascannons of course. The Skimmers and Death Rain will do it well for you though

Cheers!
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 07:23   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

In some ways, that's the answer I was affraid of. I don't have the resources to do that just yet, though I'm working towards it.

A few questions:

1) This guy seems to have come across a weird tank formation that I've come to call "Circling the wagons"

He places half of one tank in cover, then, has another tank hide behind half of that tank, and another tank hide behind half of that tank... until he's formed a bit of a perimeter around his table quarter. Because of blocking terrain and such, he can form several of these chains, and make it all the way around. Because of this, EVERY one of his tanks is hull down, which ammounts to a 4+ invulnerable save versus missile pods, which is *very* frustrating. I don't even know if it's legal, as it doesn't seem to make a whit of sense. Front armor shots have higher AV, while side armor shots benefit from hull down, making it a no-win situation.

Any idea what to do about this? Do Railguns auto penetrate even hull-down vehicles?

2) Would the Devilfishes be okay? IG Ordinance is pretty tough. If I remember, the guy who was playing said it was strength 7 or 8. That could be very painful. Does the closed-topped-ness of the vehicle protect it from ordinance somehow? And all of those chimeras will be shooting, as well as "popping their top" for rocket launcher troops, etc.

3) Should I just leave the Kroot at home for this match up / VS heavy ordinance in general?

4) Any ideal troop formations? Obviously wadding them up into a mob isn't a good idea, but neither is stringing them out like a very long shoe-lace.

5) Any worst-case scenario back-up ideas? Have a devilfish of FW's or Gue'Vesa's hop the line, drop off its payload and have them charge the Russ/Basilisk with EMP grenades? (hover, skim, whichever lets them fly over terrain, but grants everyone line of sight)

6) Maybe a look at http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...5514#msg155514 might help a little. It's the descriptions of the games I played there. The one with the scenario I describe here is "Game Three"
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 07:38   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

The most effective anti ordinance coherency formation is the circle or other hollow geometric shapes, with bases at max two inches each. Now as far as I was aware hull down simply meant that on a 4+ the hit was glancing rather than pen but it still counted as a glance even if it was to be a glance. Those indirect fire monkeys have a 36 range beyond which they can not use such antics and need line of sight to fire at all.

I advocate agresive use of all vehicles as a railhead closes on his lines it can make use of twin burst cannons as well as submunitions in tandem with devilfish heading for a flank.

Be aware you can tank shock.


Edited for unecessary language
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 07:49   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

Answers:
1: I dont know if thats legal, but just in case, ask a GW staff member, or Khanaris (Who happens to be alot less sarcastic and snide than GW staff *;D)
2. I think your devilfishys (fishy fishy fishy) would be *relativley* safe, (Wait, are they like Eldar vehicles that are destroyed if immobilised? If so, the future of your devilfishes is starting to look pretty grim) Front armor 12 is nothing to laugh at. Also, when skimming, I believe its only possible to make a glancing hit (Forgive me, I cant find the rule in my codex right now :P). So his Ordinance should find his work cut ouit for him when trying to hit your annoying devilfishys (fishy fishy fishy) dotting and bobbing around the field. Then again, its not a hard placed task to destroy your devilfish when it stops.
3: Kroot will most likely be turned into a Brownish-Red paste... put them on leave for this mission.
4: FISH O' FURY! Basically, deploy your Troops Directly under or behind your devilfish (Under is much more preferrable) and let them SHOOTY! Advantages = *Your men cant be assaulted easily* + *The enemy has to 'ld' in order to shoot them... unless theyre under the tank too*
5: Worst Case scenario = Your hammerheads dead, your Crisis suits are dead, your Broadsides are dead. Back up plan = MAXIMUM CARNAGE! Load up your men from the Fish of fury attacks and Send them screaming at the enemy, your already going to lose with no Anti armor, may aswell lose with style. A better suggestion, not coming from my agressive side, would be to send your remaining men to the objective, and hold for all gods worth!!!
6: Im too tired to click the link :P
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 08:14   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

First the hul down rule doesn't give 4+ invulnerable save, but some slight chance that instead of any penetration hit it will be downgraded to glancing hit.
Andd this formation tactic doesn't prevent shot from sides as with this configuration it work only from one direction from most of the other he will vulnerable.

Dewilfishes protecy quite well from ordanance hits if you move them more than 6'' any turn, as it usually scatter out of your vehicle so S of the attack is halved, and then it can only glance you.

Another tactic is that if he hide his tanks partially behind some terain feature to get the obscured position, then there is a blind spot where he can't shoot at all, as Lema russ need LoS to that place, and Basilisk should be too far close to that place to be able to fire indirectly.

And suits are excelent in blasting tanks, there are several crisis configurations which do it well, Deathrain (TL MP) is one of the best, i also use Deep strikind suits with MP and FB, or TL FB even Fireknife can work from side.

I tryed to go against ordanances and found out that if you have fully mobile force then they can't almoust hurt you. (But beware that lascannons on leman russes).

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Old 13 Jul 2005, 11:26   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

Another small option is the humble Gun Drone. 2 squads of the can deep strike and stun tanks and sometimes destroy them pretty easily from behind. It's worth a shot if you need a turn of movement without all the firepower loaded up on your front armor.

As everyone else said, again, Ordinance doesn't do much at all against moving skimmers. Ordinance doesn't even harm vehicles at all as well as it used to. It's sad now really, but I guess it was just too good for breaking armor and infantry before. Now it's just for infantry, and it simply doesn't do anything to skimmers that are moving around and A12 is more than enough against S8 and 9 ordinance. The hammerhead is even more sturdy.

Example: Battle cannon shoots at Devilfish, scatter just off the porte side of it; this halves the strength of the ordinance attack to 4. He's rolling against your A11 on the side, and he still get's 2D6 (choosing the highest) which is only a possible maximum roll of 10. That will never touch your A11. This is what we're talking about. He could possibly glance you in the end maybe once or twice, but you have decoy launchers and you can only be busted on a roll of a 6. That's incredibly tough.

Railguns still break through his armor without a problem. He only has a 50% chance to keep obscured target rules in effect for each tank *if* he's behind adequate cover with over 50%, not at 50%, of his tank behind it. Generally speaking he would probably have to overlap too much and not be able to fire all of his weapons very easily if he was doing it correctly.

He will have a a few BS3 lascannons to point at you, but again, moving skimmers are too resilient to worry with his few cannons. If he's loaded up on tanks, it's only his lascannons that can touch your front armor anyways with any kind of good chances to causing damage. So take XV88's or take Railgun toting Hammerheads if you can't do the full skimmer/death rain thing. You should be able to crush his tanks pretty well.

By the way - you speak of his vehicles like he has 8 of them on the field, what points game are we talking here?

Cheers!
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 11:48   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

Gun Drone squadrons are goodin quite a few situations. I loveusing them against the armored company. It also forces him to decide whether he wants to shoot at the drones hitting his rear armor, or the tanks with railguns.
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 16:49   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

It does sound like what he is doing with his vehicles is legal, but I question its effectiveness. There is some element of reciprocity involved. If he is getting hull-down when you are shooting at him, he is probably losing line of sight to you with several weapons. The sponson weapons on a Leman Russ are right in the middle of the side facing, as is the Lascannon on the front. If he is firing at you with those weapons then he can not claim hull-down on that facing, since over 50% must be exposed. The same is true for the side weapons on the Land Raider and the Heavy Bolter on the Chimera. I imagine you are normally only seeing the Battle Cannon fired, but keep this in mind if it gets blown off.

The Battle Cannon itself can fire over the body of most other friendly tanks, but not through the turrets of other vehicles. Make sure your opponent has a clear Line of Sight. Since the turret is in the middle of the tank, you should be able to use his own vehicles against him to restrict its fire lanes. In practice, the turret is elevated enough that this will often be overlooked. That will be between you and your opponent.
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 20:27   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Dealing With Ordinance

Thank all of you for your advice!

Khanaris: Yeah, I know what you're saying about the effectiveness. But the end result is *very* frustrating. Even though he can do little back to you but bomb troop formations, it's very hard to do much of lasting effect to him, either. The strategy seems to exist to force draws, which the player seems proud of!

He uses the indirect fire of the basilisk, and leaves a hole poking through for the Leman Russ to fire through. The rest of his chimeras fire their multilasers when they get the chance, but otherwise tend to just sit there.

Shas O Jeff, MalVeauX: Yes, the gundrones performed admirably in the battle report! I love deepstriking these things. In the first game I played against the fellow, they flat out destroyed a chimera in the first round of firing, inflicting the only total vehicle destruction in the game! They also whittled down the troops which spilled out of it.

I'll have to keep in mind that the strength is halved when it drifts.

MalVeauX: He was using 9 vehicles! He had 6 Chimeras for his troops, a Leman Russ, a Basilisk, and another Chimera for his HQ command squad. His troops were outright minimized, and so was most of the stuff in his army. He had a few heavy weapons teams with las-cannons, but they didn't do all that much. The game point total was 1250(!)

I had one Hammerhead, 2 Death Rains, 1 Fireknife Shas'O, and a deepstriking Sunforge suit, as all of my vehicle kill. I only really have enough stuff to field a 1000 point force, so much of my army was inflated to match his point total.

Goooo blacksun filters!

Rogen: Yeah, I guess 4+ inv is a bad way to describe it, but glancing hits were almost pointless against his vehicles, as a weapon destroyed, shaken, immobilization... etc, meant very little against his style of play. He had things set up in a pretty smart way, where, though he didn't get hull down for his front armor, his side armor was covered. Forcing a decision: Take the worse odds of hitting the front armor, or let him get his hull down? I didn't do any probability calculations, so ended up going for the side armor shots. To get at his rear armor and other side armor, I would have had to gotten troops inside of his lines, which would have been suicidal.

Ko Vash Shi: I'd love to FoF the hell out of this guy, but situations are rare in which his troops actually hit the field and are actually within line of sight. Though if we play a victory point game, I might decide to do something reckless:

Spread my fire out across of as many of his chimeras as possible, and try to shake out the troops inside. Fly a pair of fishes in, and FOF to clean out the squads. Pack up and run away ^^. It'd be like cracking a clam and cleaning it out.

Trick: Thanks! I'll try the hollow geometric idea, until I can finally save up for the devilfishes! (fishy fishy fishy, as Ko Vash is wont to say). I'll also have to remember that 36 inch range! I'm sure he was shooting at up to 48 with his ordinance. Does a disruption pod affect ordinance targeting a skimmer?

I plan on getting a few more death rains, another hammerhead, and some fishies. Thanks to the advice here though, I might even be able to do it with what I've got! Thanks again, the help is very much appreciated!
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