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Help with the counting?
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Old 08 Jul 2005, 22:26   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Help with the counting?

What is the most cost-effective way to stuff the maximum number of ap 3 or better shots into an 1850 Tau army? :-\
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 00:27   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

Well, first you'd have to consider which weapons we are allowed:

Fusion Blaster
Plasma Rifle
Rail Rifle
Ion Cannon
Rail Gun
Seeker Missile

Now, we must consider on which kind of unit they're fielded upon as well:

Crisis Suit
Hammerhead (or Devilfish in terms of Seeker Missiles)
Pathfinders
Broadsides

That leaves us with very little choice, no?

Pathfinders are not cost-effective, so that rules them out unless you like them (they can be really good though, but they're definitely not a Tau power-gamer unit, right?).
Crisis Suits are good, but expensive and dodgy since too many can break the list.
That leaves the humble Hammerhead, which is extremely point-cost effective, however doing so, will deny your army list of Railguns, which will put the brunt of anti-tank onto the Crisis Suits.

So what kind of game would you want to play?

Another thing to note is that a Tau army that is purely based on low AP is much like a StarCannon Eldar army - only the Tau aren't resilient enough to do that. So honestly, I would advise against trying to push as much low AP into the army and perhaps just take a different view to the way you play your units, to get the same effect.

As for putting an army list together with what you know about Tau and their access to mass low AP - the answer is, they don't have it. You can take a few models with low ap: Crisis suits with plasma/fusion blasters is your low ap maxed crisis suit, which isn't terribly expensive, and your hammerhead with ion cannons is the other. The rest of the army is not able to take something that is cheap, reliable and as you want it, low ap.

So if you want low ap, I'd suggest a single heavy of XV88's x 3 for your railguns, then 2 hammerheads with 2 ion cannons. That's your low AP source really. Then make good use of mounted fire warriors and kroot to be your work horse of the army and get have the crisis suits setup for tank busting (death rain comes to mind, deep striking).

Good luck to you...
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 02:06   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

Thanks, you restated for me my fears, in bold letter no less, ha! In the campaign I'm taking part in my opponents consist of seven different chaos armies (representing all the cults of the rainbow, sometimes twice) and occasionaly two necrons players and a rare dark eldar.



How does this sound for a 1850 list then?

HQ 386
1 Shas'el Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT, Hw DC+2 shield drones 140
2 Shas'vre Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 98x2 = 196
2 Shield drones

1 Ethereal 50

Elite
6 Stealth Suits 180

1 Shas'ui Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 93

1 Shas'ui Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 93

Troop
11 Shas'la +Devilfish Targeting array, Decoy launchers, multi tracker 210 (deployed with ethereal)

1 Shas'ui+11 Shas'la +devilfish Targetting array, Decoy launchers, multi-tracker 220

20 Kroot 140

Heavy
1 Hammer head Ion, Burst, Decoy launchers, Multi tracker, Target lock, 150

1 Hammer head Ion, Burst, Decoy launcher, Multi Tracker, Target lock, 150

1 Shas'ui broadside, Sms hw Tl. 80
2 Shas'ui broadside, Sms 80X2=140

List total= 1852
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 02:29   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Now, we must consider on which kind of unit they're fielded upon as well:

Crisis Suit
Hammerhead (or Devilfish in terms of Seeker Missiles)
Pathfinders

That leaves us with very little choice, no?
You forgot broadsides, which can take both rail guns and plasma rifles. I'm not a big fan of them because they're slllloooowwwww, but they're low-AP and twin-linked, so they're Necron and marine killers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Pathfinders are not cost-effective, so that rules them out unless you like them (they can be really good though, but they're definitely not a Tau power-gamer unit, right?).
Pathfinders with rail rifles work great with the Ionhead; a single hit from a markerlight makes those three shots all hit on 2+ and wound on 2+, and the rail rifle shots and pinning are a bonus.
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 03:03   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

The Broadsides HAVE to have a support system installed. So I suggest TW Plasma, plus Multi-Trackers on all of them.
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 03:13   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

Let me take a wild guess: Your hobby shop is overrun with SMurfs.

Everything that has been said till now is true and good advice, but you have to remember that armour negation is not the only way to win. TeriGirl said in one thread somewhere something that is perfectly true:

Even 3+ saves fail when you have to make 30+ of them every turn.

Swamping your target with firepower can be just as effective as a few AP shots. I have heard of people killing off several terminators - in one turn - with Kroot Rifles!

Also... just think of what happens when someone brings Orks or horde Nids...
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 06:35   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
Thanks, you restated for me my fears, in bold letter no less, ha! In the campaign I'm taking part in my opponents consist of seven different chaos armies (representing all the cults of the rainbow, sometimes twice) and occasionaly two necrons players and a rare dark eldar.



How does this sound for a 1850 list then?

HQ 386
1 Shas'el Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT, Hw DC+2 shield drones 140
2 Shas'vre Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 98x2 = 196
2 Shield drones

1 Ethereal 50

Elite
6 Stealth Suits 180

1 Shas'ui Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 93

1 Shas'ui Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 93

Troop
11 Shas'la +Devilfish Targeting array, Decoy launchers, multi tracker 210 (deployed with ethereal)

1 Shas'ui+11 Shas'la +devilfish Targetting array, Decoy launchers, multi-tracker 220

20 Kroot 140

Heavy
1 Hammer head Ion, Burst, Decoy launchers, Multi tracker, Target lock, 150

1 Hammer head Ion, Burst, Decoy launcher, Multi Tracker, Target lock, 150

1 Shas'ui broadside, Sms hw Tl. 80
2 Shas'ui broadside, Sms 80X2=140

List total= 1852
Okay, first off, your HQ Drop the Guard and drop the drones. Us the Shas'el's IC abilities to keep it alive. It is after all just a Shas'el, it's not that big of a deal. Next drop the Shield Gen and Fusion on the Shas'el, the 4+ Inv isn't nessessary if your keeping him within 6" of a Tau unit and don't have him up front. The fusion is only 1 shot, and at only 12" on top of that, plus your only hitting on a 3+. I'd suggest TLMP, PR and HWMT for the Shas'el. For the elites, the Crisis's are only hitting on a 4+, so once again the Fusion isn't a good idea, go MP, PR, MT with them. Also, put the extra Crisis you had left from the Guard and put it into the Elite team to fill it out. This config for Crisis is good for all ranges really, you've got the MP for long range, if your static with them, the PR is great mid range and if you get up close and personal, the PR's rapid fire with the MP will put out alot of power in a 3 man team. The mech troops look goodr, it's what I'd do. Just be VERY careful with that Ethreal in that squad, getting him up in the fire isnt a good thing, They're fearless yes...but if he dies, it could be game over for you. Personally for a FoF troop like the one you have, I'd keep the Ethreal back and out of harms way allowing for moral re-rolls, and put a Shas'ui in that squad to give it even more fire power and higher leadership. Heavy Support looks good for SMurfs.
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 11:08   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas'bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick
Thanks, you restated for me my fears, in bold letter no less, ha! In the campaign I'm taking part in my opponents consist of seven different chaos armies (representing all the cults of the rainbow, sometimes twice) and occasionaly two necrons players and a rare dark eldar.



How does this sound for a 1850 list then?

HQ 386
1 Shas'el Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT, Hw DC+2 shield drones 140
2 Shas'vre Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 98x2 = 196
2 Shield drones

1 Ethereal 50

Elite
6 Stealth Suits 180

1 Shas'ui Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 93

1 Shas'ui Plasma, Fusion, Shield gen, Hw MT 93

Troop
11 Shas'la +Devilfish Targeting array, Decoy launchers, multi tracker 210 (deployed with ethereal)

1 Shas'ui+11 Shas'la +devilfish Targetting array, Decoy launchers, multi-tracker 220

20 Kroot 140

Heavy
1 Hammer head Ion, Burst, Decoy launchers, Multi tracker, Target lock, 150

1 Hammer head Ion, Burst, Decoy launcher, Multi Tracker, Target lock, 150

1 Shas'ui broadside, Sms hw Tl. 80
2 Shas'ui broadside, Sms 80X2=140

List total= 1852
Okay, first off, your HQ Drop the Guard and drop the drones. Us the Shas'el's IC abilities to keep it alive. It is after all just a Shas'el, it's not that big of a deal. Next drop the Shield Gen and Fusion on the Shas'el, the 4+ Inv isn't nessessary if your keeping him within 6" of a Tau unit and don't have him up front.
The 6 inch rule was in third edition. That has nothing to do with independent character status now.

Threadstarter - Your hq section is in shambles. Drop the bodyguards, and the shield generators. The fusion on the single suits can go and you should replace them with missile pods. Since they are one man squads, you can upgrade them to team leaders to something like Twin linked missile pod, Plasma rifle, hardwired multitracker. You have a disturbingly small army for 1850 points... I would try to invest in more firewarriors.





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Old 09 Jul 2005, 13:06   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

the sad truth is, eldar (craftworld, and dark) are the only race with obscene access to low AP firepower.

it thats what you want, play eldar, and load up on starcannons and bright lances, or disintegrators, and dark lances.

Tau dont have it, and really they dont need it either. the main low AP tau unit- the crisis suit with tl plasma is vunerable. and expensive. its 60 points for 1-2 ap2 shots. 180 points for the possibility of 4-5 plasma hits. there is a far more efficient way to spend your points to kill marines.
as has been said, force marines to take LOTS of saves, and they will start falling.

As opposed to "elite" troops (ie the best a race can produce- best training, weapons, armour etc, eg space marines) fire warriors, and kroot are amongst the best "basic" troops in the game.
a fire warrior has a kill ratio that is virtually equal to a space marine, and point for point, they have higher kill rations, and generally perform better in ranged combat.
who needs dodgy, and incredibly expensive, and unreliable elites when you can load up on LOTS of fire warriors who are very effective. a firewall (wall of fire warriors!) is very effective at killing things, and even marines will fall. 4-5 squads of fire warriors and 1-2 packs of kroot should see you sorted.
the troops of the tau, along with their heavy support, are the strengths of the army. play to it.
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Old 09 Jul 2005, 14:16   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help with the counting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
the sad truth is, eldar (craftworld, and dark) are the only race with obscene access to low AP firepower.
I know... our club retard is an Eldar player, who has at least 11 Starcannons in a 1,500pt army. Mine had 1.

My advice is screw AP, and bring Burst Cannons/Missile pods. High RoF weapons have two advantages:
1) much better vs Hoard armies.
2) statistics.

Let me explain the second point. Statistically, a 3+ Save model will fail one save for every three they have to make, and a 2+ Save model fails one for every six they take. Now obviously this doesn't always happen; sometimes you get lucky and pass more, sometimes you pass less. However, over the course of an entire battle, it should balance out. Thus if you can wound a Marine three times with a Burst Cannon, you should kill him, and as Burst Cannons are cheap, you can bring more of them, thus giving more shots, causing more wounds, and resulting in more failed saves!
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