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Carbines or Rifles
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 16:35   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Carbines or Rifles

Pulse carbines and rifles each cost the same amount points wise, and you can field a squad fire warriors carrying either. Personally I like to keep my squads separate. I usually have half of my squads with just carbines and half with just rifles. It keeps game play quick, and still places the advantages of both weapons on the field. However, there are dozens of ways you can field your warriors and advantages and disadvantages to both weapons. I would be interested in hearing about how other people organize their squads.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 16:41   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

I have 3 fire warrior squad and 2 kroot sqaud I play with.

I usually field 1 or 2 rifletau squad along side 1 kroot squad, since my guys are either static or Fish of Fury.

I usually keep my carbine tau for my ethereal Honour Guard.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 18:14   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

Rifles. There's really no advantage to Carbines. Pinning is mitigated by the generally extremely high leadership of the opposition that we face. Our opponents are either fearless, or have mob rule, or have re-rollable leadership, or have leadership 10. If they dont have any of those rules then they're usually easy enough to kill and aren't worth pinning. Anyway, the value of double the shots at short range is far more important to our army then the scant possibility of pinning. Also, the additional benefit of being able to sit back at 30" is also extremely valuable.

This is a topic that comes up literally all the time. Pulse Rifles are by far superior to pulse carbines. You're not going to kill half as much with Carbines which is the most important factor in chosing the main armament of your fire warriors.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 18:17   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

Actually I put Rifle for my Honour Guard, for fluff reason: last line of defense.

You shoot, you pin, or you assault if need be.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 21:42   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

well high leadership I don't think is a problem with pinning for tau as we have these things called markerlights.
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Old 08 Jun 2009, 00:08   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Rifles. There's really no advantage to Carbines. Pinning is mitigated by the generally extremely high leadership . . . The value of double the shots at short range is far more important to our army then the scant possibility of pinning. Also, the additional benefit of being able to sit back at 30" is also extremely valuable.

This is a topic that comes up literally all the time. Pulse Rifles are by far superior to pulse carbines. You're not going to kill half as much with Carbines which is the most important factor in chosing the main armament of your fire warriors.
While I agree that Pulse Rifles (PR) range and rapid fire are superior to pulse carbines (PC) when Fire Warriors (FW) are in a stationary Defensive position. I do not agree that there is no advantage to carbines at all.

In 5th edition FW and Kroot are the only Tau scoring units. While moving forward to secure an objective, a unit of PC armed FW actually have a longer reach than their PR armed bretheran. Move 6" and shoot 18".

Now this is only an extra 6" on the move but Boneguard, Griffin Archer, and I are not suggesting tau players replace all PR with PC. A PC unit might occupy an objective at the end of the game and with the help of marker lights pin an enemy unit and prevent them from contesting the objective.

If you already have 3 PR armed units of FW, arming a 4th FW unit with PC might be helpful.
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Old 08 Jun 2009, 00:16   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tausand sun
well high leadership I don't think is a problem with pinning for tau as we have these things called markerlights.
Indeed we do, but the opportunity cost is extremely high. Generally speaking we need to focus fire at least 1 squad of fire warriors and 1 squad of pathfinders on a single squad just to have a chance to pin. Statistically you're only going to ge 4 markerlight hits with a full squad of pathfinders. Let's say if you're shooting at Meq's you'll use 2 marker light hits to make the fire warriors BS5. So you'll get 9 hits with your fire warriors which will cause 6 wounds and will kill 2 marines. At which point you take a pinning test where the marines are reduced to leadership 7. This still gives them a 50% chance to pass the leadership test. At that point I'd rather just use 2 squads of fire warriors firing at ballistic skill 5 with pulse rifles giving them double the number of shots. This gives me a decent chance of wiping the squad of Meq's out entirely. Of course this is just one example in which using marker light shots for pinning is anywhere from unreliable to useless. Other situations are....

Orks - mob rule: If there's more than 10 of them they're fearless.
Necrons - The entire army has a base leadership 10. so in the example above you're only statistically likely to reduce them to leadership 8.
Eldar/guard/sisters of battle - at toughness 3 you're MUCH better off just focus firing and wiping out entire units with your strength 5 shooting rather than attempting to pin someone.
Daemons of Chaos - The whole army is fearless and cant be pinned.

So on and so forth.... For the same points cost it's much better in any case, to have twice as many shots as vs. pinning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMac321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Rifles. There's really no advantage to Carbines. Pinning is mitigated by the generally extremely high leadership . . . The value of double the shots at short range is far more important to our army then the scant possibility of pinning. Also, the additional benefit of being able to sit back at 30" is also extremely valuable.

This is a topic that comes up literally all the time. Pulse Rifles are by far superior to pulse carbines. You're not going to kill half as much with Carbines which is the most important factor in chosing the main armament of your fire warriors.
While I agree that Pulse Rifles (PR) range and rapid fire are superior to pulse carbines (PC) when Fire Warriors (FW) are in a stationary Defensive position. I do not agree that there is no advantage to carbines at all.

In 5th edition FW and Kroot are the only Tau scoring units. While moving forward to secure an objective, a unit of PC armed FW actually have a longer reach than their PR armed bretheran. Move 6" and shoot 18".

Now this is only an extra 6" on the move but Boneguard, Griffin Archer, and I are not suggesting tau players replace all PR with PC. A PC unit might occupy an objective at the end of the game and with the help of marker lights pin an enemy unit and prevent them from contesting the objective.

If you already have 3 PR armed units of FW, arming a 4th FW unit with PC might be helpful.
I understand your thinking here. I thought the same thing for a while myself. However, this is deceptive. If you look at a pulse rifle vs. a pulse carbine you can potentially get more shots with the carbine because of the extra range when you shoot and move. However, what you'll want to consider is the rapid fire aspect of the pulse rifle. If you get to shoot every turn of the game with your pulse carbines you'll shoot for 6 turns (usually). But if you're shooting every other turn with your pulse rifles you'll shoot for 3 turns with twice as many shots. So really it evens out. Considering that there is no reason not to have your fire warriors in a devilfish then you should be shooting every other turn. I think we all agree that generally fire warriors aren't durable enough to truly be marched across the board.

You definitely need to have them in a devilfish. If you've got your fire warriors marching across the board they're not particularly fast moving 6" every turn. Something is going to catch them and kill them. It's not tough to kill fire warriors with shooting and in close combat they're just a joke. The best way to keep them safe from shooting and away from close combat is to put them in a devilfish. At which point the pulse rifle, with it's double shots, becomes immidiately superior.
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Old 08 Jun 2009, 05:42   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

I run 3 with rifles (1 Firebase, 1 FoF, 1 EMP Tankbusters), and 1 with Carbines, working the flank and doing 18" Fof attacks to reduce risk from Fleet enemies
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Old 09 Jun 2009, 14:50   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

I run Carbines for FoF and CoD. Rifles I use for overwatch and objective camping.

In the end I run more Carbines than Rifles, as I try to keep both mobile and at range. Once you see the strength of moving and shooting 18", you wont fear assault as much.
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Old 09 Jun 2009, 15:17   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Carbines or Rifles

Well, it sounds like there are some strong opinions on this subject. Regarding the Ork Mob rule, I have actually found that a combination of the two works well to pin them. You fire into them with rifles and then hit what is left with carbines. If the rifles do their job then they are week enough that the mob rule hardly helps. It does not always work, but when it does you have stopped a mob from advancing for a turn, and that is a very big deal against orks. One turn without a movement phase usually means that you have finished that mob.

Of course, I can see the advantage of going all rifles as well as it means that you can shoot twice as much when they are within 12", but with the new run rule that hardly ever happens with Orks. Often an Ork player will forgo shooting against tau because it is better to get close quickly, so they will go from the 12"-18" window directly to assault.

As far as Necrons and Marines go, I would go for all rifles as they tend to actually take their shooting phase, so the double shot at 12" actually helps.
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