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When can I fire Seeker Missiles?
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Old 24 May 2009, 17:45   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Seeker missiles are used by the Tau infantry to obtain immediate fire support on large targets.

Does that mean that if I have markerlights on a target, I need to declare the launching of seeker missiles at the same time I am firing a squad of Fire Warriors at it?

It's a weird question, but let me put it in perspective for you. This is how it came up last game:

A unit of Pathfinders fired markerlights at a Vindicator.

Then, a unit of Fire Warriors fired their Pulse Rifles + Markerlight at a Space Marine squad.

I then declared I was launching missiles at the marked targets from my two Warfish (which had fired earlier in the phase).

My opponent said no, as the Warfish had taken their turn of shooting, and so had the Fire Warriors and Pathfinders. He reasoned that after I had used up my unit's shooting, they weren't able to then call in a missile strike, all shooting had to be resolved at once. Meaning, after the Pathfinders had shot, they then needed to use their markerlights immediatly to obtain the Seeker Missile support, as did the Fire Warrior team when they fired upon the space marines.

So basically the question is this: Are seeker missiles used in the same way as heavy weapons in other armies, where you need to fire them at the same time as the infantry team? Or is the Shas'ui able to radio in a strike onto a target using markerlight hits AFTER he and his team have fired onto a completely separate target.

I apologize if I don't make much sense, it's hard trying to put the issue into words.
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Old 24 May 2009, 18:02   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Your opponent sounds like he's wrong or possible going about it incorrectly.

Marker light tokens are expended by subsequent units firing at the marker lighted target.
It also doesn't matter if the vehicle has fired or not, or the condition of the vehicle as long as it's still in play, the vehicle can fire a seeker missile.

However, because you need to use/activate your ML tokens with a subsequently firing unit (which is why Networked ML's get to go first and thusly can benefit a unit), if the only units you had left were a PF squad, FW squad, and the two warfishes (that had all apparently taken their turn shooting) then it couldn't be done.

Now, if your devilfish didn't get to shoot, then you could still have said you were targeting each of the marked units (since 2 fish equals two separate targets) and used them to launch the seekers.


All of this should be clear if you read the ML section in the rules. This is one area, thankfully, that is fairly well laid out.
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Old 24 May 2009, 18:06   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Your opponent's wrong in that you can't fire 'cause the vehicle has already fired.

The unit that is firing at a marked unit (i.e. your Firewarriors shooting at the Space Marines) can use a markerlight hit to call in a Seeker Missile strike.

Essentially the FW's are shooting the Seeker Missile (just so happens to come from the Warfish).

This is why a team of Pathfinders can light an enemy squad up and then some FW's can use 4 Seeker Missiles on said squad from a Skyray after said Skyray has used its two Markerlight hits to fire some Seeker Missiles.

It can get pretty complicated but if you've got a ML counter and a Seeker Missile then you can have any unit (that can legitimately shoot) call in a Seeker Missile at an enemy unit that unit is shooting. I think the vehicle in question can even be stunned/shaken.
EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot the Networked Markerlights... The same unit that used a Networked ML can use the token. That's why a Skyray can fire its own missiles.
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Old 24 May 2009, 21:00   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

I disagree with the previous posts. Your opponent was correct. If you choose to use a markerlight counter to launch a seeker missile, it basically becomes a temporary extra weapon for the squad that used the counter. What you needed to do was declare when you shot with the fire warriors that they were using two markerlight counters to call for seeker missiles. In your case, technically, the fire warriors could not call for the seeker missiles because you forgot to, the pathfinders couldn't because their markerlights are not networked, and the devilfish didn't use the counters either or fired at the wrong unit.

Having said that, however, your opponent was being a stinker. The counters were there, and the fire warriors were firing at the marked unit; you just forgot about them. In a hard-core tournament it would be appropriate to call you on it, I suppose, but in a friendly game it would be a lot more friendly to let you call for the seekers right after firing with the fire warriors.

Also, keep in mind that if the fire warrior's markerlight hit, yet another unit would have to use that counter. The fire warriors can't use their own unless it comes from a marker drone. Using markerlights effectively requires thinking ahead quite a bit. Start with the pathfinders, then fire the rest of the units with non-networked markerlights as early in the shooting phase as possible. If you have a skyray (which I highly recommend), you can use it as markerlight cleanup. Since the skyray has a target lock and its markerlights are networked, by my interpretation of the rules you can fire its markerlights, then use counters from those two, plus any other counters that it can see. It can call for seeker missiles from any vehicles still on the table, not just itself. Of course, if the skyray has taken a crew shaken or stunned result, then you have to use something else for cleanup. Whatever it is, it either needs to be a vehicle with target lock, a unit shooting at the marked target, or a target-locked infantry model that can fire at the marked unit.
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Old 25 May 2009, 17:20   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Hmm, i didn't realize that a seeker strike had to come from a squad.
As far as i was concerned, you could use your markerlights for whatever you want, including seekers coming in.
For example:
Pathfinders shoot their markerlights, and lets say they all hit
You could use 2 marks to boost your FW's BS to five, then 2 more to reduce the enemy cover save
After that, you will have 4 more markers on the table, so you can call in missiles from wherever they happen to be.
From how i understand it, once a counter is expended, it can be used however, and no one on the table has to explicitly call in a seeker, it's up to the player
But then again, i'm a noob.
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Old 26 May 2009, 03:59   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

The rules regarding markerlights and seekers are almost contradictory.

The rules state that a squad equiped with a markerlight may request a seeker missle as described by the markerlight rules. So it states that you may fire a seeker missle by expending a marker with any unit that is capable of using markerlights (so all Tau units and vespid with strain leader) that is firing at that unit.

So you must be firing with a unit in order to expend the marker on it. You could declare some squad of fire warriors that are at the back corner are firing at something they can barely see (so long as they actually can see it) and you should be able to fire one.

This raises the question of whether or not taking target locks on models is a bad thing. You could say the 'squad' is firing at that unit, expend markerlight tokens and nail it, but declare all your units are targetting something else completely due to target lock, prior to rolling any hit die of course. That would be cheese, but it follows the rules as their written.

Thoughts?
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Old 26 May 2009, 05:33   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Kay
The rules regarding markerlights and seekers are almost contradictory.

The rules state that a squad equiped with a markerlight may request a seeker missle as described by the markerlight rules. So it states that you may fire a seeker missle by expending a marker with any unit that is capable of using markerlights (so all Tau units and vespid with strain leader) that is firing at that unit.

So you must be firing with a unit in order to expend the marker on it. You could declare some squad of fire warriors that are at the back corner are firing at something they can barely see (so long as they actually can see it) and you should be able to fire one.

This raises the question of whether or not taking target locks on models is a bad thing. You could say the 'squad' is firing at that unit, expend markerlight tokens and nail it, but declare all your units are targetting something else completely due to target lock, prior to rolling any hit die of course. That would be cheese, but it follows the rules as their written.

Thoughts?
I agree with your logic on the idea of calling in a markerlight token from a unit that is out of range, as the rules just state that your regular shots just miss if the target is beyond the maximum range.
On your last paragraph, I think it is a bit backwards. Target locks on a team leader or shas'ui might be beneficial because you can declare that the model with the target lock is firing at (for previous examples) the tank (which it wouldn't be able to harm), and the rest of the unit is firing at some basic troops. the team leader can then call in how many ever seekers he wishes on the tank and let the unit fire on the regular targets. Even more fun, if the tank and basic troop targets both have markerlight hits on them, the team leader can try to pop the tank, and the squad could burn some markerlights for the added BS or cover save reduction on the foot troops.
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Old 26 May 2009, 05:53   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by auxiliary priest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Kay
The rules regarding markerlights and seekers are almost contradictory.

The rules state that a squad equiped with a markerlight may request a seeker missle as described by the markerlight rules. So it states that you may fire a seeker missle by expending a marker with any unit that is capable of using markerlights (so all Tau units and vespid with strain leader) that is firing at that unit.

So you must be firing with a unit in order to expend the marker on it. You could declare some squad of fire warriors that are at the back corner are firing at something they can barely see (so long as they actually can see it) and you should be able to fire one.

This raises the question of whether or not taking target locks on models is a bad thing. You could say the 'squad' is firing at that unit, expend markerlight tokens and nail it, but declare all your units are targetting something else completely due to target lock, prior to rolling any hit die of course. That would be cheese, but it follows the rules as their written.

Thoughts?
I agree with your logic on the idea of calling in a markerlight token from a unit that is out of range, as the rules just state that your regular shots just miss if the target is beyond the maximum range.
On your last paragraph, I think it is a bit backwards. Target locks on a team leader or shas'ui might be beneficial because you can declare that the model with the target lock is firing at (for previous examples) the tank (which it wouldn't be able to harm), and the rest of the unit is firing at some basic troops. the team leader can then call in how many ever seekers he wishes on the tank and let the unit fire on the regular targets. Even more fun, if the tank and basic troop targets both have markerlight hits on them, the team leader can try to pop the tank, and the squad could burn some markerlights for the added BS or cover save reduction on the foot troops.
This is actually 100% legal by RAW. Tau are so far from cheese right now that any help is welcome. Seekers are overpriced anyways so do what you must to bring them back into efficient levels.
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Old 26 May 2009, 14:23   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by auxiliary priest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Kay
The rules regarding markerlights and seekers are almost contradictory.

The rules state that a squad equiped with a markerlight may request a seeker missle as described by the markerlight rules. So it states that you may fire a seeker missle by expending a marker with any unit that is capable of using markerlights (so all Tau units and vespid with strain leader) that is firing at that unit.

So you must be firing with a unit in order to expend the marker on it. You could declare some squad of fire warriors that are at the back corner are firing at something they can barely see (so long as they actually can see it) and you should be able to fire one.

This raises the question of whether or not taking target locks on models is a bad thing. You could say the 'squad' is firing at that unit, expend markerlight tokens and nail it, but declare all your units are targetting something else completely due to target lock, prior to rolling any hit die of course. That would be cheese, but it follows the rules as their written.

Thoughts?
I agree with your logic on the idea of calling in a markerlight token from a unit that is out of range, as the rules just state that your regular shots just miss if the target is beyond the maximum range.
On your last paragraph, I think it is a bit backwards. Target locks on a team leader or shas'ui might be beneficial because you can declare that the model with the target lock is firing at (for previous examples) the tank (which it wouldn't be able to harm), and the rest of the unit is firing at some basic troops. the team leader can then call in how many ever seekers he wishes on the tank and let the unit fire on the regular targets. Even more fun, if the tank and basic troop targets both have markerlight hits on them, the team leader can try to pop the tank, and the squad could burn some markerlights for the added BS or cover save reduction on the foot troops.
The rules state that where the squad that is firing can expend marker tokens from the unit they are firing at. The squad leader is shooting at a separate target than what his squad is firing at, and as such, cannot expend marker tokens from the tank he is firing at. It also seems like if you use a target lock and have your squad's BS boosted, it doesn't effect the unit that's firing at a different squad because the BS boost is for units firing at the target squad.

Now that I think about it, this makes target lock a more and less desirable option at the same time. You lose being able to expend tokens on the squad they fire at using target lock, but you can split up your fire if you need to.
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Old 26 May 2009, 15:32   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: When can I fire Seeker Missiles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Kay
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxiliary priest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Kay
The rules regarding markerlights and seekers are almost contradictory.

The rules state that a squad equiped with a markerlight may request a seeker missle as described by the markerlight rules. So it states that you may fire a seeker missle by expending a marker with any unit that is capable of using markerlights (so all Tau units and vespid with strain leader) that is firing at that unit.

So you must be firing with a unit in order to expend the marker on it. You could declare some squad of fire warriors that are at the back corner are firing at something they can barely see (so long as they actually can see it) and you should be able to fire one.

This raises the question of whether or not taking target locks on models is a bad thing. You could say the 'squad' is firing at that unit, expend markerlight tokens and nail it, but declare all your units are targetting something else completely due to target lock, prior to rolling any hit die of course. That would be cheese, but it follows the rules as their written.

Thoughts?
I agree with your logic on the idea of calling in a markerlight token from a unit that is out of range, as the rules just state that your regular shots just miss if the target is beyond the maximum range.
On your last paragraph, I think it is a bit backwards. Target locks on a team leader or shas'ui might be beneficial because you can declare that the model with the target lock is firing at (for previous examples) the tank (which it wouldn't be able to harm), and the rest of the unit is firing at some basic troops. the team leader can then call in how many ever seekers he wishes on the tank and let the unit fire on the regular targets. Even more fun, if the tank and basic troop targets both have markerlight hits on them, the team leader can try to pop the tank, and the squad could burn some markerlights for the added BS or cover save reduction on the foot troops.
The rules state that where the squad that is firing can expend marker tokens from the unit they are firing at. The squad leader is shooting at a separate target than what his squad is firing at, and as such, cannot expend marker tokens from the tank he is firing at. It also seems like if you use a target lock and have your squad's BS boosted, it doesn't effect the unit that's firing at a different squad because the BS boost is for units firing at the target squad.

Now that I think about it, this makes target lock a more and less desirable option at the same time. You lose being able to expend tokens on the squad they fire at using target lock, but you can split up your fire if you need to.
Actually, verbatim from the Tau Empire codex:Counters may be expended by subsequently firing Tau (and Vespid units, so long as the Strain Leader is alive) firing at the 'marked' unit. Every counter expended grants the firing unit one of the following effects,...
As far as the target lock goes, the model with the target lock counts as an independent unit firing at the new target. That is just common sense, and yes, one man can count as a unit (examples:last man in unit, Guardsman Marbo from IG). The markerlight rules themselves state that subsequently firing Tau (not unit) can cash in the marker tokens.
Also, if somebody with a target lock is firing at a separate unit, and the rest of the unit cashes in a BS upgrade, of course the target locked model doesn't get a boost, because it is not firing at the 'marked' unit.
As in a lot of things dealing with 40k and miniature games in general, the keyword is game, and even the rule book states that their rules are more of a guideline to follow. Everybody just use a little bit of common sense and everything will be okay, no arguments needed. If you're playing somebody that will complain about common sense rulings like the one above, don't play them, its not that big of a deal.
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