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BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 06:12   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

That death company is unpossible to kill! There is no weapon in our arsenal that can take out a death company safely besides the railgun but that is a bit overkill and a waste of a precious railgun shot. Plasma rifles might do the trick but any Crisis suit with plasma rifles are sushi if they are to get in to 12" rapid fire range of a jetpacked death company. Any other ideas how to kill those double saving marines?

One trick I figured is that they black rage towards the nearest enemy. You can potentially lure units away from valuable targets by placing kroot strategically.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 06:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

I use a volley of about 8 seeks, and every other gun i have in my army, on the First turn. That works most of the time for me i played the blood angels 4 times, 2 games from two different people. One uses death company and all assault troops. The other has more terms and a land raider. The guy with the land raider beat me once, very hard to take down a land raider. ;D
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 07:36   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

I find land raiders easy to take out. They can't ever hide it, the thing is HUGE. Just blast it away with some railguns. It'll go down 50% of the time. The problem I have is the death company and the assault marines. They're too fast and get up in your grill before you had enough time to shoot at them. Even if you had time to shoot at them, you're lucky if you kill 1 of them with your ordinary guns like kroot rifles and burst cannons.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 13:39   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

take 5 squads of fire warriors, and play a static line. Vehicles are of no use against the death company, and youre better off taking 8 more fire warriors than an extra devilfish.

the only safe way to kill the death company is mass pulse rifle fire. and any decent tau player will have 40+ fire warriors and 15+ kroot , it should present no problem. Seekers are another option, but i remain unconvinced. I hate killing 80 points of my list to kill 85 points of his, if you get my meaning.

by the way, there is a sneaky little trick to kill ALL a land raiders' passengers, without even firing a shot..... ;D
I will remain tight lipped, but i might be persuaded to part with my knowledge.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 13:52   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
take 5 squads of fire warriors, and play a static line. Vehicles are of no use against the death company, and youre better off taking 8 more fire warriors than an extra devilfish.

I disagree with you. It's against fast, assault-oriented armies that Devilfish mounted Firewarriors are the most useful. Any opponent worth their salt will move up under the cover of terrain... or if there isn't terrain, under the cover of their own vehicles. One of my most frequent opponents plays Blood Angels and it's an extremely rare game that I get a single shot off at the Death Company before they're amongst my lines. The only thing that prevents them from making it to close combat (where they're safe from my shooting!) is the fact that all my troops are mounted up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
Seekers are another option, but i remain unconvinced. I hate killing 80 points of my list to kill 85 points of his, if you get my meaning.
Seekers aren't 'killed' when they're fired. They're a wargear upgrade for a vehicle. The only way for your opponent to get VP's for Seekers is if he kills the vehicle they were originally mounted on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
by the way, there is a sneaky little trick to kill* ALL a land raiders' passengers, without even firing a shot..... ;D
I will remain tight lipped, but i might be persuaded to part with my knowledge.
I do have to disagree with you again... you need to fire at least one shot... and you're not likely to make any friends doing it either.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 14:01   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0nkaTruckDriver
I disagree with you. It's against fast, assault-oriented armies that Devilfish mounted Firewarriors are the most useful. Any opponent worth their salt will move up under the cover of terrain... or if there isn't terrain, under the cover of their own vehicles. One of my most frequent opponents plays Blood Angels and it's an extremely rare game that I get a single shot off at the Death Company before they're amongst my lines. The only thing that prevents them from making it to close combat (where they're safe from my shooting!) is the fact that all my troops are mounted up.
the reason devilfish are of no use against the death company is simple. each Dc chaplain gets 5 str5, and each DC marine gets 4 str5 attacks. and bolt pistol shots. all cc attacks can be re-rolled if they miss (litanies of hate) Skimmers offer no real defense against this, and if he positions his guys right, none of your models will be allowed to disembark, netting him a dead 215 points of your army. and while your 3 FW squads are zipping around, avoiding his Death Company, they're not doing their job and shooting them, the only thing we can do to kill them. and it will be 215 points of your army that is NOT shooting at the rest of his army. he has won by forcing you to run away and avoid him.
set up right, and you should have at least 24" of free space between you and them. set up your units to force him away from any convenient cover. then you have a chance. and playing recon, there is a very good chance the Dc will be in your lines by turn 2. all you can do is shoot them. and hope for the best. vehicles are no defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0nkaTruckDriver
Seekers aren't 'killed' when they're fired. They're a wargear upgrade for a vehicle. The only way for your opponent to get VP's for Seekers is if he kills the vehicle they were originally mounted on.
i know seekers dont give him VPs. christ, that would be bad! I'm saying, i dont like the idea that 80 points of my list are things that i can only use once, and once they're used, are gone and are effectively "dead". hence, killing 80 points of my list to potentially kill some of his units.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 14:33   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
the reason devilfish are of no use against the death company is simple. each Dc chaplain gets 5 str5, and each DC marine gets 4 str5 attacks. and bolt pistol shots. all cc attacks can be re-rolled if they miss (litanies of hate) Skimmers offer no real defense against this,* and if he positions his guys right, none of your models will be allowed to disembark, netting him a dead 215 points of your army.
Hmmm. I think there's a rule you're missing here. When an opponent assaults a vehicle, they must assault in the facing-arc that they are currently in. Therefore, if you position your Devilfish so that the Death Co will be in its front arc as they approach, then they must assault the front of the vehicle. And then it's S5 against AV12... The only things that have a chance to do anything are any Melta-bombs that may be present of the Chaplain and any power-fists that may be in the squad, and he needs 6's to hit first. True, he gets to re-roll these attacks (why you get to re-roll attacks with Melta-Bombs is beyond me...) but fortunately for us, against Tau, he's not likely to take many Power Fists in his Death Co since he's already got us horribly out-matched in close combat.

If we assume there is 1 Fist in the Death Co (a fair assumption given that your opponent knows he's fighting Tau...), AND we assume the Chaplain has Melta Bombs, they have only a 24% chance of bringing down the Devilfish.

Furthermore, even if they do bring down the Devilfish, they can't assault the Firewarriors inside on the same turn. Sure they'll be entangled, but the point is that the Death Co are not locked in combat. This is the way Blood Angels beat Tau. By moving from one combat to the next using the 'Grail of 2d6" consolidation' to never allow you a chance to shoot at them. By bringing transports for your troops, you prevent them from being able to do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
and while your 3 FW squads are zipping around, avoiding his Death Company, they're not doing their job and shooting them
This statement contains 2 assumptions which I would argue are not valid. First, 3 Firewarrior Teams is almost unheard of in a Mech Tau army commanded by an experienced general... especially in 1500 pts. As you say, while they're holed up in their 'fish, they're just not that useful, especially in any great quantity. In this case, however, being "not that useful" is a lot better than being "free victory points for the enemy", which is what they'd be if they were on foot. Second, I don't think it's fair to say that it is the Firewarrior's 'job' to shoot. It's very rare that my Firewarriors actually kill anything in a given game. However, I still get use out of them and consider them worth the points investment. More often than not, the threat of shooting, acting as a distraction is enough to allow my other mobile elements to get the dirty work done. That's exactly what I'm proposing here. Use Devilfish mounted Firewarriors as a durable 'bait' unit that can reliably survive assault by the Death Co, and then once they're within range and out of cover, blast them to bits with everything else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
he has won by forcing you to run away and avoid him.
You make it sound like running from the Death Co is a bad tactic? If his Death Co survives the entire game, but never makes it to close combat, I consider it a game well played on my account. I'm more than happy to lure them around the table with a Devilfish or Hammerhead letting them waste their attacks against its skimming, armored hull while the rest of my army picks the rest of his army apart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
set up right, and you should have at least 24" of free space between you and them. set up your units to force him away from any convenient cover. then you have a chance. vehicles are no defense.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
the point is in a 1500 pointer, 80 points of my list is seekers, for example. I fire them, i've just used up 80 points of my list, perhaps killed 85 points of his and there is no way of getting them back. therefore, its 80 points that are fired, and are now "dead", for want of a better word. and i could use 80 points in far better ways.
Well, that's certainly true. If you don't like Seekers, that's a completely different discussion. From your original post, however, you made it sound as if used Seeker Missiles were considered "casualties" for the purposes of determining Victory Points. I just wanted to make sure that others didn't misinterpret what you were saying.
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"You can of course make a list that attempts to work via fragility and easy VP donation and Pathfinders fit into that just fine." -- kai
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 14:41   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0nkaTruckDriver
Hmmm. I think there's a rule you're missing here. When an opponent assaults a vehicle, they must assault in the facing-arc that they are currently in. Therefore, if you position your Devilfish so that the Death Co will be in its front arc as they approach, then they must assault the front of the vehicle. And then it's S5 against AV12... The only things that have a chance to do anything are any Melta-bombs that may be present of the Chaplain and any power-fists that may be in the squad, and he needs 6's to hit first. True, he gets to re-roll these attacks (why you get to re-roll attacks with Melta-Bombs is beyond me...) but fortunately for us, against Tau, he's not likely to take many Power Fists in his Death Co since he's already got us horribly out-matched in close combat.

If we assume there is 1 Fist in the Death Co (a fair assumption given that your opponent knows he's fighting Tau...), AND we assume the Chaplain has Melta Bombs, they have only a 24% chance of bringing down the Devilfish.

Furthermore, even if they do bring down the Devilfish, they can't assault the Firewarriors inside on the same turn. Sure they'll be entangled, but the point is that the Death Co are not locked in combat. This is the way Blood Angels beat Tau. By moving from one combat to the next using the 'Grail of 2d6" consolidation' to never allow you a chance to shoot at them. By bringing transports for your troops, you prevent them from being able to do that.
they assault the side they face at the start of the assault phase. face them with the front armour? they move 12" a turn and can just easily jump at thr side, or the back, if he plays them well. and check your rulebook. you cant disembark within 1" of an enemy unit. any that do, are removed as casualties. he covers the access hatches, kills the fish, all Fws are removed as dead, as they cant escape. So, thats why i say fish are a deathtrap against death company

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0nkaTruckDriver
This statement contains 2 assumptions which I would argue are not valid. First, 3 Firewarrior Teams is almost unheard of in a Mech Tau army commanded by an experienced general... especially in 1500 pts. Second, I don't think it's fair to say that it is the Firewarrior's 'job' to shoot. It's very rare that my Firewarriors actually kill anything in a given game. However, I still get use out of them and consider them worth the points investment. More often than not, the threat of shooting, acting as a distraction is enough to allow my other mobile elements to get the dirty work done. That's exactly what I'm proposing here. Use Devilfish mounted Firewarriors as a durable 'bait' unit that can reliably survive assault by the Death Co, and then once they're within range and out of cover, blast them to bits with everything else.

You make it sound like running from the Death Co is a bad tactic? If his Death Co survives the entire game, but never makes it to close combat, I consider it a game well played on my account. I'm more than happy to lure them around the table with a Devilfish or Hammerhead letting them waste their attacks against its skimming, armored hull while the rest of my army picks the rest of his army apart.
the job of a shas'la is to shoot, preferably from long range. you zip 2 Fw mounted squads around, thats 430 points of your army thats not doing anything. and in my eyes, its foolish. i dont regard running from the death company as a bad tactic. i do regard it as a flawed tactic, in that as ive stated 430 points of yuor list is doing sweet FA, and shooting them is a better option than running away from them.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 14:56   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

You can make a wall in front of the Death Compnay with your Hammerheads and Devilfish, forcing the Death Company to go around, because they cannot jump over it. That would delay them by at least a turn and give you another round of shooting to take them down.
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Old 06 Jun 2005, 15:03   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: BloodAngels! Worse than Cockroaches.

I'd have to say that there really is not NEED to kill. It's preservation that wins the games. I've played plenty of other games where I've stalled a battle to a standoff in some valley, then brought in a contingent of reinforcements that my opponent thought he killed off or weakened to minimal effectiveness.
To win is not always to get the most number of kills the fastest. Just being able to stall the enemy without losing much of your own can become the deciding factor of a game.
Thus, mounted troops can acutally save you the game, as they won't ge easy bait for your opposition to take. They're good bait, but your opponent has to work for it, and that can save you in other areas.
Also, the job of a warrior IS technically to shoot and kill, but that's only a restriction set by generals who precieve everything aggresively. I have seen many strategies that the threat of a unit was enough to weaken the resolve of the opposition, which weakened the attack, and thus, let the player win the match without even using that unit to attack.
There are more dimentions to a game than simple agression and killing.
(Note: the examples I used were not techically from 40k, but I believe that they still apply here)
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