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ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)
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Old 01 Apr 2009, 12:58   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

So last night i finally got a chance to try playing ninja tau against my usual opponents eldar army. Unbeknownst to me he had decided to try out something apparently called a "master strategist" list with two autarchs and army composed damn near entirely of outflankers and deepstrikers.
Chaos ensued, and its not the precise, bloody, chaos of a jon woo action I'm talking about here. Neither of us really had any clue how to use our lists against a list similarly built around deepstrike and outflank, and it resulted in a lot of confused staring at the board as one unit would deepstrike on top of a unit that deepstruck last turn, which had deepstruck on to some outflankers the turn before etc.

So here is my question for you, how do you use ninja tau against another deepstrike/reserves list. Personally I have no idea where to begin really, so I'd really really appreciate what ever ideas/advice i could get.
Where gonna have a rematch tonight and with luck we might make this fight into an actual tactical engagement instead of two armies flailing at each other.


(Slight side note- my favorite moment in that came when my stealth suits assaulted his jetbikes resulting in 3 round combat which was like watching two mentally handicapped kids try and beat each other to death with wiffle ball bats, fight was still going on at the end of the game)
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Old 01 Apr 2009, 13:13   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Well, the first thing you have to notice is the fact that since your lists are going to work in a similar way, you would need to do either one of these two actions

1)Negate or minimize the advantages of the opposing list, while increasing or dominate with your own list

2)Counter each of the moves made by your opponent.

3)Divide and conquer

4)Maintain a tempo

When it comes to these two armies, you have to realize that one will ultimately be better in the beginning stages, while the other is better off in the latter stage. The difference between the two lists is the fact that one is trying to bring everything in as soon as possible, while the other wants to bring its units as late as possible in the game; Eldar would be the former, Tau would be the latter.

So seeing that you are the Tau, your game will be more or less a game of counterattacking and reactivity. You do not want to be the aggressor, but instead you would give some ground so that some elements of the Eldar army will move in and be overstretched, allowing you to bring the rest of your forces to bear and wipe the stray unit. However, if they are smart enough, they would realized it and will try to move as one.

This is the part where you need to divide their forces and wipe them out one by one. This can be done by using hit and run tactics, baits and some rather high-risk units (suicidal maybe). All of these can be done in combination to make the division within the Eldar army much faster and more decisive, which will allow you to kill of the units much faster.

And this brings us to our final point; once you start to divide and kill, you need to maintain a tempo to it, or else the tables will turn on you rather quickly and causes a rout which will allow the Eldar forces to do the some to you, and they can always do it better.
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Old 02 Apr 2009, 01:07   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoy Octopus
Well, the first thing you have to notice is the fact that since your lists are going to work in a similar way, you would need to do either one of these two actions

1)Negate or minimize the advantages of the opposing list, while increasing or dominate with your own list

2)Counter each of the moves made by your opponent.

3)Divide and conquer

4)Maintain a tempo

When it comes to these two armies, you have to realize that one will ultimately be better in the beginning stages, while the other is better off in the latter stage. The difference between the two lists is the fact that one is trying to bring everything in as soon as possible, while the other wants to bring its units as late as possible in the game; Eldar would be the former, Tau would be the latter.

So seeing that you are the Tau, your game will be more or less a game of counterattacking and reactivity. You do not want to be the aggressor, but instead you would give some ground so that some elements of the Eldar army will move in and be overstretched, allowing you to bring the rest of your forces to bear and wipe the stray unit. However, if they are smart enough, they would realized it and will try to move as one.

This is the part where you need to divide their forces and wipe them out one by one. This can be done by using hit and run tactics, baits and some rather high-risk units (suicidal maybe). All of these can be done in combination to make the division within the Eldar army much faster and more decisive, which will allow you to kill of the units much faster.

And this brings us to our final point; once you start to divide and kill, you need to maintain a tempo to it, or else the tables will turn on you rather quickly and causes a rout which will allow the Eldar forces to do the some to you, and they can always do it better.
Good advice, might actually help me in my next tourney as well
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Old 02 Apr 2009, 04:48   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Theoretically with the Pos Relay you could out wait him by only putting out 1 unit a turn ^-^, until you're satisfied with the amount he has on the table that is.
Remember , he can't limit what comes in (even with 2 Autarchs), he can only add positive modifiers to Reserve rolls (+0, +1, or +2)
On the otherhand, you can deem like 2~3 units as 'more expendale' or take some tiny (read sacrificial >) units with this strategy in mind.
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Old 02 Apr 2009, 05:45   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

I think it would be nice and helpful if you posted your list so maybe we can help you improve on your list and/or tactics.
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Old 02 Apr 2009, 13:32   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandalorian
I think it would be nice and helpful if you posted your list so maybe we can help you improve on your list and/or tactics.
I was hoping to make the topic more general so as to be helpful to other people in my situation

HQ-----
83-'el with TwL Missle pods, Positional relay, and HwDC w.
197- 'O with CIB, BC, HwMT, SG, SI, HwDC, Iridium armor, 2x SD, failsafe detonator
---To expensive, I know, but he's gonna be so pretty when I'm done with all the conversion work, and hey lets face it, tourneys score on looks to :P
Elites--
159- 3x Deathrains w. targeting arrays
300- 6x Stealth Suits w. 5x Gun Drones, 2x Marker Drones, and TL w. bonding knife
300- same
Troops---
205- 10 x Fire Warriors w. Devilfish(DP &FD)
205- 10 x Fire Warriors w. Devilfish(DP &FD)
Heavy---
150 -Ionhead w burst, DP, FD
(actual prices maybe off I'm pulling it from memory but you get the gist)
but it was fairly standard ninja tau fair at 1600 pts, I would have like to have used my railheads but i left em at home by accident, and I don't think it would have impacted the game to much, since he was playing with a largely "fun" list as well. The game ended a little early since i had work in the early EARLY morning , as a draw.
The game basically consisted of him dropping his entire damn army on top of my pos relay guy (all had to start on the table was him and the hammer head), and his team of deathrains. On turn two and shooting the hell out him for two turns. When he inevitably died all my units in reserves made their role and popped onto the table. His army was all next to my table edge, so placing all my units for prime shots was easy. The last few rounds we were able to play were an ugly and un coordinated mess of both our armies sitting on top of each other on the table edge shooting each other and trying to maneuver to no real effect (that table edge was crowded).

But as I was sayin earlier :P my big issue was that I was confronted with a situation i had not previously considered tactics for, another mobile, reserves based list.

My opponent seems to think it would have gone better for me if I had put some more units on the table on turn 1 and focus fired on the few things he had out there, but I think this would have just given him more target to deepstrike on in turn 2.

Oh and thank you decoy that advice will be most helpful in our up coming rematch.
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Old 02 Apr 2009, 17:17   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Well, if all his stuff came in on Turn 2 and outnumbered you suits, I'd say my suggestion sucked. Sorry :P.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShasO Corvid
The game basically consisted of him dropping his entire damn army on top of my pos relay guy (all had to start on the table was him and the hammer head), and his team of deathrains.
Make the Pos Relay guy a Tank'O > (SI,IA,SDx2) and try to minimize costs elsewhere (FD's don't do much for me, but that's just a start)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShasO Corvid
His army was all next to my table edge, so placing all my units for prime shots was easy.
Good to know, ^-^ remember that and use it to your advantage next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShasO Corvid
But as I was sayin earlier :P my big issue was that I was confronted with a situation i had not previously considered tactics for, another mobile, reserves based list.
It's really not that reserves based from the sound of it. It seems like he is starting a turn later; making your first turn useless for shooting, which it already kinda was due to your ninja tactics.

When facing a list more mobile than yours: (I think I read this in a tactica)
1) Don't try to keep up with them, they will try to get you to isolate elements of your army :huh:
2) Condense your forces to protect weaker units (like a wagon circle a la 40K )
3) Remember that you are mobile and when they present an opening; strike hard, fast, and together.
4) If you strike at somepoint, try to position units in a defensible way. Or at least capable of massive retaliation on your next turn ;D.

5) Relative to this situation, try starting with even less on the table. The inevitable death of the Pos Relay suit is, inevitable, against an entire Eldar army that is :-X...Don't wanna lose the Deathrain squaad as well. The Tank'O will hopefully survive longer, but not that long. The goal is for him to survive long enough that your forces don't arrive in (as much) disarray.
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Old 02 Apr 2009, 20:36   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Ninja Tau mostly came about as a reaction to exactly this kind of Army - However in my case it was Drop Pod Marines and Out Flanking Scouts/Landspeeders, Plus DS Terminators and Assault Marines etc etc. Ninja Tau has a significant advantage over ANY other reserve based Army - The Positional Relay - Which give us control of WHEN we bring our reserves on. No other Army can match this ability - and in Reserve V Reserve it means that 99% of the time (unless the Dice Gods hate him) your opponents reserves will hit the Table before yours do - Which limits the damage they can do, and also means you can target and destroy them before your opponent gets any use from them.

Basically when your enemy picks a Reserve Based list he has several aims in mind - He wants to down and cause the maximum amount of Damage with his units when they arrive, and pick off your key units to limit the amount of return damage you can inflict - he also wants you to be reacting to his unexpected attacks, its the kind of list that is designed to cause confusion in your opponent and force you to fight the battle on ground and circumstance of HIS choosing...So the Key elements of most Reserve Lists are Confusion and Damage - Focusing your fire/attacks on your enemy's Key Units/Objectives etc.

This does not work against Ninja Tau - Because not only are they not on the Table - But they don't have to Commit anything to the Table until your enemy has committed most of his force, because of this when your enemy hits the table they have nothing to target (removing the Damage part of there plan) and also nothing to force you to react to - instead they will be forced to react to your Troops attacking them.

So with Ninja Tau the Strongest and perversely the Weakest link in your army is your Relay'O - If he stays up until at least turn 3 - you hold significant advantage, if he dies earlier - then you have a tough fight on your hands.

The Key is to maximise his chance of survival and to minimise the effect of his death on your force - difficult to do - but not impossible!

1. Make your Commander an 'O (4 Wounds) give him 2 x Shield Drones, and Stims. - He should now be invulnerable to small arms fire (unless there is MASSIVE amounts of it) and while the Drones are up, relatively safe from Heavy Weapons.

2. When your Commander is Deployed generally he will be the only thing on the table (unless you have brought something else on too, or are using a Squad of Drones or Kroot as ablative wounds) - So think carefully about where you put him.

Against another Reserve based army you will be safe on Turn 1 - its not until turn 2 that your enemies army will start to arrive.

Option A) - Deploy in (or move in to during your turn 1) a building. Intact Buildings act like Transports - So before anyone could target your commander (or Assault him) they would have to destroy the building he is in. Only Heavy Weapons will do this - and they have to hit and penetrate first - then only have a 1 in 3 chance of taking down the building. This is the safest way of maximising your survival.

Option B) - Deploy your Commander as far away from any Key Objectives as possible (always give him a long range weapon) - That way if your enemy does go all out to kill him they will be bring in there forces miles away from the action (or where the action will be when your Troops come in) - Its an extreme form of Flank Denial - If they fail to kill your Commander that's great, but if they do take him down the majority of there army is now stranded far away from the objectives/entry points for the rest of your force and will struggle to get to you. Your Commander may have died, but in his death he has still been useful - this time not in delaying your reserves, but in putting your opponents army out of position.

Option C) - Flanks - Always deploy your Commander over 12 Inches from the Flanks, this means that you cannot be assaulted by the majority of Outflanking Troops the turn they arrive.

Option D) - Deploy with a unit - Deploy your Commander with a cheap disposable unit - GunDrones are good because they have Jetpacks so can move with the Commander - or a Small unit of Kroot etc. They can be Ablative Wounds for your Commander. - For Example, Deploy your Commander in a Forest with 10 Kroot, You can use your Relay while pinned so if anyone shoots at you go to Ground - this means before your enemy hits your Relay'O they have to shoot through 10 2+ Saves and 2 Shield Drones. - Never Deploy him with Good Units though, such as Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Kroot Assault Squads - These Units have better jobs to do, and will do them better if they are not tied down to your Commander (And just be being with the Commander they become a even more tempting target for destruction). - Keep them separate!

Option E) - Close Combat - If a small Squad (without Power Weapons) deepstrikes next to your HQ but fails to kill him - then assault them - you may not win, but this doesent matter - If you are locked in CC then you cannot be shot at! (and you can still use the Relay).

The Important thing is to realise that a Relay'O is not there to fight - he is there to do one job - Use the Relay. So don't rely on him as a fighter, just keep him alive until at least turn 3 (when your reserves come in on a 3+) or ideally turn 4 (when they come in on a 2+). - After that if he dies its no great loss. - If you give your opponent first go (standard Ninja Tau Doctrine) - and your Commander stays up you will have a significant advantage.

Turn 1 - Both Sides in reserve, nothing happens.
Turn 2 - Enemy Forces come in on a 4+ (without Bonuses) so 50% of his Army should arrive.
Use your Relay - Just one of yours will come on (unless you roll a 1 - then none come on!).
Turn 3 - Enemy Forces come in on a 3+ - So 2/3's of the remaining reserves should come on - So probably at least 80 - 85% of their army will now be on the table.
You can bring in 1 unit on a 2+ and hold back everything else, or try for every thing on a 3+.
Turn 4 - 2+ Roll - all your enemies force should now be on the table.
Bring in your Troops.

In the early stages you are best off either bring on a cheap disposable unit, or a Long range Unit you can bring on Miles away from your opponents first wave and start blasting.

- Overall, any Reserve Army coming up against Ninja Tau is going to have problems! - If they fail to take out your Commander in the first few turns than the advantage is all yours! - Wait till he hits the table then annihilate him piece by piece
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Old 03 Apr 2009, 01:12   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Wow Gonefishing , you just took my game Pro :P.
Incidentally it's a pleasure to 'meet' you .
I think you deserve Karma for those Relay'O deployment options...
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Old 03 Apr 2009, 01:23   #10 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: ninja vs. ninja (or playing a ninja tau vs a deepstrike army)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFishing
<<snip>>
But there is a flaw in the plans. You are assuming that they really want to kill you up, close and personal. What happens if all they ant it to secure a single objective, and deny you the rest with firepower? In addition, the Eldar Double Autarch list means that they will get their stuff all in by turn two, which often means that they will be already waiting for your arrival. and any singular unit that comes in will often be minced or about to be minced.

In addition, the more turns that you are not on the table gives the opponent another turn for them to position themselves for the greater advantage. and by turn 4, you only have two turns to do your wonders, and if your opponent is deeply entrenched, you will not be able to get them out in time to get that decisive win.
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