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Vespid V marines
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Old 29 Mar 2009, 22:21   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Vespid V marines

So, just how good are these against marines? if used correctly can they wipe out a marine unit by shooting and assaulting?
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Old 29 Mar 2009, 22:25   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

if you use them cojointly <mixed feelings> they seem to be more of a backup unit for a static list as the enemy draws

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Old 29 Mar 2009, 22:58   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

Yeah I think i'm gunna start going more ninjaish... Deepstriking stuff and co-ordinating attacks.
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Old 29 Mar 2009, 23:20   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tausand sun
So, just how good are these against marines? if used correctly can they wipe out a marine unit by shooting and assaulting?
at 12 points more than no-upgrades pack of 10 tactical marines, a full squad of vespid will net you:
11 shots, 5.5 hits, 3.6 wounds/models-killed on average unless there's cover
Then, you assault:
22 swings, 11 hits, 3.6 wounds, 1.2 kills. Just about/under 5 dead marines, but at the price of a full squad of 10.

Now they hit back, we'll assume the sergeant doesn't have 2 weapons: 2.5 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.1 dead vespid.

They lose, combat-tactics out, and if you're REALLY lucky he doesn't have a flamer anymore, because here comes the shooting phase: 10 shots, 6.67 hits, 4.4 wounds (and thus kills). Or he had a flamer left in there and you're really in trouble.

Vespid are expensive, and you need a full squad to take out 5 tacs with any reliability... at over twice the cost. If they weren't so damn fragile they'd be excellent, but they're shot up just like guardsmen. Expensive, Flying guardsmen.

You CAN mitigate and improve their odds greatly however if the strain leader's alive with markerlights. You'll have to to negate cover anyways, but if you can improve their BS to 5, you'd kill 6 marines on that very first volley, which means a dead combat squad or a full one in bad shape.
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Old 30 Mar 2009, 04:22   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

If you have cover for them to take advantage of (their 5+armor wont save them against much), they can advance reliably through it (Skilled flyers), and quickly as well (jump infantry). If you've got a unit of Pathfinders looking after them, making sure their BS is at least a 4 when they shoot, they're a good marine killing unit.

It comes down to preference. If you like using Vespid to deliver your killing blow, or Battlesuits.

/shrug
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Old 30 Mar 2009, 05:47   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

But are they really worth taking over battlesuits at that point?

I really would like to use the vespid and they deffinetly bring the anti-AP3 death, but they are so expensive. I also agree that they are fragile when compared to what they are facing in the SM arsenal. They do well as a mop up unit in general but when facing SM they just aren't point cost effective IMO.
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Old 30 Mar 2009, 05:55   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

yeah that was basically my point. If they, for their price, had 4+ armour, they'd be just right. Too expensive to waste but just survivable enough to actually do their job well and be worth picking up.

But for the same price you could take 3 helios, netting 1.25 kills per suit on average at BS3 at the same range (and watch the markerlights do their magic now). More survivable, far more capable against light/medium vehicles (or anything you wanna melta), and better if assaulted (though they go second so you want them away from assault a little more) in terms of damage and survivability.
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Old 30 Mar 2009, 18:13   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

Thats another thing: Assault. Why do vespid have such a high Initiative when they obviously are so sub-par in the CC areana. We'll use normal Space marines, becuase honestly they are a good thing to compare against both for the topic and in general. Ignoring their ranged weapon for now, if they are assaulted they will hit first, but need to roll 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound, then the opponent gets to make a 3+ save. Thas will net you very few successfull kills, and now it is the Marines turn. They need to roll 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound and the vespid get a 5+ save and the SM get to do this twice on the charge. Additionally, unlike the vespid who have no wargear to augment their ability, Space Marines (for the same point costs) get base wargear that makes them significatly stonger in ranged and close combat against vespid. Now to be truthful Vespid are jump infantry, have a kick arse weapon, albeit short range, utilize cover well and can deepstrike. But non of that helps against SM IMO and makes them a point sink.
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Old 30 Mar 2009, 19:16   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

I agree with all your opinions and would just add that Vespids are not just over their proper value but also in contradiction with the fluff on page 16 of the codex TE, check the third paragraph wich say that they have "diamond like claws"... I think that they should have better stats regarding the assault phase... either: attacks, toughness, weapons skill, armour save or/and strength
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Old 30 Mar 2009, 20:22   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Vespid V marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
But are they really worth taking over battlesuits at that point?

I really would like to use the vespid and they deffinetly bring the anti-AP3 death, but they are so expensive. I also agree that they are fragile when compared to what they are facing in the SM arsenal. They do well as a mop up unit in general but when facing SM they just aren't point cost effective IMO.
actually with markerlights vespid can clean a full marine squad off the table, and cost effectivewise, they are our cheapest source for basic marine killing power. Nearly half the cost of other sources.
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