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vs Daemons. How?
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 05:20   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default vs Daemons. How?

I've got a game coming up in a league that pits me against a Chaos Daemons player. I've never fought this army as its relatively new, so I really don't know what to expect. I've heard they're very unconventional, as they don't set up anything before the game and every unit has Deep Strike, instead. I also know very few have armor saves, but all have an invulnerable save. And that Railguns/Fusion Blasters won't insta-kill any of them.

So, I've got two strategies in the works.

The first, is creating a ring with my Fire Warriors. They form a perimeter (I've got 20). So, a fairly large circle @ 1-2" coherency. Behind them is a second ring, containing 60 Kroot. Inside of that, are my battlesuits (10 Stealth, 4 Crisis). Outside of these rings, and completely independent, are by 2 Broadside Monats, placed far away from the ring.
Here's how I'd like it to play out:
-Daemons Deepstrike around the circle or at the Broadsides.
-Some may shoot and weaken the rings, but the whole circle will stay together most likely
-End of Daemon Turn
-Kroot (who have benefitted from cover, being behind the more resilient Fire Warriors), charge past the outer ring. Stealth suits and the XV8 team moves out and engage threats
-Fire Warrior and battlesuit shooting (trying my best not to shoot through the Kroot charge, I don't want to give the enemy 4+ Cover saves since it's better than their 5+Invul)
-Broadsides target big Daemons or the Defiler
-Kroot charge weakened Daemon units, finishing them off

Strategy two
My friend suggested this
-Spread my deployment out so I cover the whole zone
-Infiltrate my Kroot and spread them out as much as possible, covering the most area in models (i've got 60 Kroot)
-Wait for him to Mishap

I know which of these will get me more sportsmanship points but still....
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 05:32   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: vs Daemons. How?

I like the bunkering up idea. don't leave anything off the table. make sure ALL of your guns can shoot at his half an army that's coming in 1st turn. Concentrate on packing as many shots as possible (unless you know he uses alot of stuff with 3+ save) Make sure you have throw away firewarrior units you can tarpit somthing you cannot kill in 1 turn.

kroot is a good way to go too, iirc daemons dont pack frag grenades.

read up on the fate-crusher build.

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Old 25 Mar 2009, 06:14   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: vs Daemons. How?

You just listed the two most common anti-deep striking strategies I know of.

;D

Bunkering up is good, as it leaves you with a strong counter-attack. Just remember that daemons are amazing in assault (save the shooty Tzeentch ones), whether through pure killyness (bloodletters... grrr...) or sheer attrition (lol plaguebearers... T5, 5+ inv, FNP... not fun), so make sure they're weak. Daemons are very weak to massed fire, as they really don't have great saves, so lay on the pulse and have fun.

Spreading out to cause mishaps is also good, but don't become too thin.

Regarding kroot... against a lot of daemons, I'd most likely prefer to rapid fire and take a charge (preferably in cover! a lot of daemon units don't have frags) unless I'm fairly confident in the kroot's ability to either wipe out the daemons before the respond (hounds are good here!) or live until after the daemon's attacks (possible, but not all that likely, to be completely honest... daemons really are that brutal in assault).

Daemons don't have a defiler, they have a soul grinder. Same basic idea, however, so treat it in the same way.

I've never actually fought daemons before, so I'm mostly relying on theoryhammer and knowledge vs deep-striking in general (I do know a daemons player and have read the codex several times, however, so it's not like I'm giving advice completely blind).
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 07:11   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: vs Daemons. How?

I wouldn't rely on trying to force the mishap. Besides it being a dirty trick, I don't think it will work. Half the daemons will arrive in the first turn, and at least one squad will almost certainly have a chaos icon. The ones arriving from reserve later will not scatter at all if they come in within range (6 inches, I think) of the icon.

Generally, to counter demons you need lots of shots at reasonably high strength. Tau have enough of this to do better than most, so load up on pulse fire, missile pods, burst cannons, and similar. I would also go for serious mobility to avoid the assaults. Khorne or Slaneesh daemons are quite dangerous in assault, but they can't assault in the turn they arrive. If you can either kill them in the turn they appear or get the troops away then they can't assault you at all. I think your main worries are the big monsters and any bloodcrushers he has. Bloodcrushers are regular-infantry speed assault units, but they have a 3+ armor save in addition to their invulnerable. They take a LOT of firepower to bring down. Any Nurgle forces like plague-bearers are similar: very tough, but easy to stay away from. The Soul Grinder is a nasty walker with 11 rear armor, so you will need railguns or fusion to take it down. There are several options of daemon monstrous creature that are very tough, deadly, and (worst of all) move like Jump Infantry. In particular, watch out for the two-headed bird critter known as Kairos or Fateweaver. He's a shooty monstrous creature, but he and everyone around him can reroll all their saves. If he shows up, pepper him with missile pods and make sure your opponent rolls leadership every time he takes a wound. If he fails that leadership he is removed as a casualty regardless of how many wounds he actually has left! Lastly, brush up on your unit types and how they move. A couple of choices in the army are classed as jetbike or beast/cavalry, and they're faster than you might think.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 11:17   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: vs Daemons. How?


First of DON'T spread out, bad tactic. Sure he has more walking to do but he doesn't care. He just concentrates on 1 flank with the first wave and the rest will deal with the other flank. At least that happened to me. I played deamons many times (as my regular opponents are Daemon/Chaos or Eldar) and sometimes I managed in containing them. They are extremely hard against Tau, as we have nothing to counter them. Even when using Kroot you'd better swarm them or your kroot are getting torn appart.

I've mostly played the Korn or Tzeentch type. They sometimes had a plaguebearer unit that sits on an objective. When facing Korn watch out for those bloodcrushers or the chariot unit (not sure about the name), these things are hard to kill. They have high T and have a lot of wounds (I think they where T6, and 3? wounds). They will suck up a lot of fire while the bloodletters assault you. So don't be distracted and stay outside 12" range, so don't rapid fire unless you are sure the unit will die. If it doesn't then say goodby to the unit that rapidfired, even 3 letters or 1 crusher can wreak havoc in your lines. They aren't impossible to counter just pack firepower like hell.

Now when facing Tzeentch, you are facing firepower. They have units with AP4 that chew trough your FW units, so keep them in cover. They also have some flying meltabombs that move like bikes, so shoot them first if you want your tanks to stay allive. Now they aren't that hard to counter, just shoot back or assault with Kroot. Finally we have units we can charge with Kroot, the normal Horrors(? bleu and pink) aren't good in assault and Kroot should chew them up.

Now for the general treath, the Soulgrinder. Most of the time it will be deepstriking right in front of your lines. Why? Because if you can't kill it it will assault you. Nothing (except our Crisis) can hurt them in CC. If they don't assault then they are most likely just shooting at your units and your opponent doesn't use them right. I've faced 2 of these countless times. The only thing I can say is Rails, Rails and more Rails. Sure Fusions also do the trick but if I can help it I'm not getting close. So shoot from range and watch them burn.

I know this ain't a real peptalk but I've faced deamons in the hands of a talented player. They hurt if used right. Their real weakness is that they come from assault. And here's why, they don't all come on in the first turn. So if you pack your units together and he deepstrikes in front of your lines. You have 1/2 his army facing your full wrath. If you manage to break, totaly break his first wave you have won the battle. Deamons relly on breaking their opponent in the first few turns, if that didn't happen then they are most likely to lose.

Now on a more positive note... Take transports, they protect you from anything that can hapen in their first turn. Unless I'm mistaken then they don't have Melta or Fusion. So they can't hurt those transports on their first turn. They also keep you mobile and help you outrun the daemons.

Tactics:
1) Bunker in a corner (but not too small). Sure you can be boxed in but you have your whole army to break trough them. You may have to sacrifice some units (the once on the flank that didn't break) but they are helping the greater good. So concentrate on one flank and escape trough the hole you created. His next units are coming in piecemail, so mob up the other flank or the unit that just deepstruck close to your army.

2) Reserves tactic. This is basically the Ninja tactic, you want to make sure that he comes on the board before you do. This works wonders against Tzeentch as they are weak and rely on getting those first shots. Now the deamon player HAS to spread out in order to make sure you get close. You have a whole flank that you can use to come on the board and he only has a limited assault range. Now you pick a flank and stick to it.

3) Meatshield. Use Kroot (and lots of them) to make a wall infront of you lines. If he's going to assault then he can't shoot (they simply have no firepower). If he's going to shoot then he has AP4 and you don't what that for your FW. Use those Kroot as a shield, then strike back with firepower and Kroot charges. They may or may not survive, but break as much of his lines as possible. If you take large packs then you can tie up the opponent. This will make his lines even more broken, you shoot anything that comes out of CC (unless it are your Kroot ;D).

I know it's already a long reply but I just want to share my experience. As you might have seen the tactics focus on 2 things: "minimal exposure" and "focussed fire". The deamons can be broken but you have to make it happen in the first 2 turns. When rolling who goes first always let him go first EVEN when playing objectives. You want that extra shooting turn in the beginning of the battle. I've said it before and I'll say it again: "That first turn is CRITICAL.".

Now I'll stop my ranting, I'm not even sure what the first thing I typed was... I think you get the point. If you have unit specific questions just ask. I face most (since the Deamon player takes diffrent mixes of daemons) and will help where I can.

Greetz
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