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High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 03:20   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

Alrighty, here we go! I've got a question to put to all you experts out there 'cause I haven't had a lot of experience of my own.

No points in specific, probably ~1,500-2,000 if you need want a guidline.

As the thread name suggests, I'm trying to find out what a more versatile/effective force would be. Obviously the army in question is going to be Hybrid or Mech 'cause Static just gets eaten in 5th. Both forces would ideally concentrate fire to maximise enemy losses; i.e. destroy a whole squad at a time in pseudo-Aggro-Tau fashion.

The hypothetical high rate of fire army works off the mentality 'the more saves they have to take the better' (obviously I'm not advocating leaving the railguns home, but less fusion?..) and would consist probably of: Railheads (using submunitions) and 12 man Firewarrior squads, probably with a predominence of Stealth and Firestorms (TL flamer suits? Risky? Yes, but...) with Pathfinders supporting.

The high strength/AP shots would work off of a 'quality is better than quantity' concept. Burning eye and Helio suits would dominate and there probably wouldn't be any Stealth to be seen. Firewarrior squads would be minimized and Heavy support would probably have a team of broadsides (more railguns but more static and less/no anti-infantry submunitions)

Obviously the high strength/AP force would be more geared toward anti-Teq, Meq, and Tank. However I'm leaning toward high rate of fire as more versitile because if you have to take enough 2/3+ saves you'll fail one eventually (I know I do when I take 20+ saves from an Ork charge :-\ but maybe I have shit luck).

Whew :P. What do you guys think? That's my input.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 03:49   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

I've been having a lot of good results with a small combination of both. Typically I'll run a two suit squad with a 'ui team leader with HW-MT, HW-TL(optional), Plasma Rifle and Missle Pod and sometimes Targetting Array. The second gets a Twin-linked Missle Pod and Shield Generator or flamer. Alternatively I'll run a third squad with a single XV8 set up fairly identical to the first XV8 set up(PR, MP, MT) or as a squad of three. It gives a nice combo of hard hitting firepower and number or shots on target. When the enemy closes to 12" your getting a nice increase in AP shots as well. depending on points I'll run a hammerhead or XV88. The key I think for the XV88 success for me has been the Stabilisation system and multi-tracker. The ability to shoot and move to harry your opponent with deadly twin linked railgun fire and a nice volume of fire from the SMS can be well worth it. I've also been greatly enjoying my Stealth Suit squad to round this out. A squad of three is putting down 9 dice at 18" and then hopefully jumping back out of harms way or hard to sight at a distance. This can also protect your Marker Drones if you attach them to your stealth unit increasing thier safety and volume of fire. (A static pathfinder squad seems to be a pretty juicy target and if you have to displace them thier affectiveness and worth of course is seriously hampered.) Hope this sparks some ideas. I know I'm always trolling around looking to try new combinations or things to try.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 04:19   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

I've been finding success with the Fish of Fury and Battlesuits of the Broadside, Burning Eye, and Deathrain configurations myself. For me, I've been fielding my army in a focused manner, in which the primary way to strike is to focus on an exposed or weak chain in the opponent's force. As a result, the opponent spreads out, unsure of what way I will come in. FoF acts to shield my Suits from being directly targeted.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 05:23   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

mixed, with marker light support.

that way you can have what you need, when you need it, and where you need it.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 06:10   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

Sorry about that. My internet is acting up > so I lost the good long response I'd written. Here's another.

I guess what I'm asking is: couldn't a multitude of shots do what a small amount of 'good' shots do while being able to effectively combat hordes as well (unless there's a 'lith, those need railguns so I guess we can discount HS choices as given to include railgun goodness). The mix wouldn't be quite as necessary if quantity (which appears to be favored in 5th, see Codex:Orks) could do both.

I guess markerlights are a given too, how many though? I like Andy's idea of sprinkling ML goodness in Stealth squads with Marker Drones. If GW gave us MD kits like the GD or SD ones that might be really cool ;D.

In my experience Stealth teams (for example) can perform just as well as XV-8's (yeah, yeah, I hear the cries of rage) when huntin' Meqs and handle hordes at the same time (which only the Firestorm could do as well (which isn't really the point of this thread... Quantity of shots is the subject)). Yeah I just shocked myself with those double parenthesis too. I love those things WAAAY too much >

@ Wild
What kind of units perform well? How do you set up? i.e. Do you keep forces generally in a group? Or do you split forces to get your oppenent to spread out and then recondense (hopefully faster than they can react)? I'm intrigued by this 'primary strike'. It sounds like what I've been trying to do.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 15:23   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

I usually have a FORT(tm) with xv88s in the center and firewarriors around it. around that, there is another layer of firewarriors that are in min squads whose job is to absorb charges. Fort density depends on enemy love of templates.

The Fort(tm) shoots things.

The rest of the army will operate around this fort. Somtimes the pathfinder will be in the fort, somtimes they will be to the side, but always they will cover the most obvious approach route to the fort.

Almost always there will be a unit that has at least 3 melta and 3 plasma rifles floating around somwhere.

Yes, alot of pulse fire will down marines. love my xv15s when guided by mklight. However pulse fire will not down terminators or nob bikers with medic. That's where the xv8s come in with their ap1s and 2s.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 21:13   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

Depending on the force, and mission deployment, I either deploy first or second. If its Dawn of War, then no matter the army, I go second and do not put anything out. As a result, this forces my opponent into spreading his force out, forcing a weakness in the army to be seen. This can be either be a lone unit, or simply someone who strayed too far for backup. As a result, everyone comes in and converges on that lone unit, unaffected by Nightfighting. This also has the dubious shock on my opponent's face. It also further increases when my Tau engage in Close Combat.

And before any naysayers appear, it is simply just my Commander, and if need be backup from the Suits. They will normally if not ALWAYS get the job done.
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Old 26 Mar 2009, 00:46   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies


I guess markerlights are a given too, how many though? I like Andy's idea of sprinkling ML goodness in Stealth squads with Marker Drones. If GW gave us MD kits like the GD or SD ones that might be really cool ;D.

In my experience Stealth teams (for example) can perform just as well as XV-8's (yeah, yeah, I hear the cries of rage) when huntin' Meqs and handle hordes at the same time (which only the Firestorm could do as well (which isn't really the point of this thread... Quantity of shots is the subject)). Yeah I just shocked myself with those double parenthesis too. I love those things WAAAY too much >
I've been diggin mine Stealths as well. Those babies are getting a pimp paint job for sure!. I use two markerlight drones in my stealth squad. I made my second one out of a normal drone and a target lock from a XV8. I cut one drone pulse carbine just behind the circular mount, basically the "stock" off, leaving the mount and barrel. The other carbine I carefully cut the grenade launcher out leaving the "L" shaped part from under it intact. I then cut the "stock" diagonally to make this carbine look like an antenna. Looks very similar to the original. Drill a hole in the Target Lock and it mounts right under the drone and looks almost identical to the original. Let me know if you want a pic.

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Old 26 Mar 2009, 01:03   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

Cool conversion Andy, got pics please ??? I mean I'm sure I could stumble around with my bitz if it's inconvinient, but yeah :P you offered.

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Originally Posted by Wild
This also has the dubious shock on my opponent's face. It also further increases when my Tau engage in Close Combat.
And before any naysayers appear, it is simply just my Commander, and if need be backup from the Suits. They will normally if not ALWAYS get the job done.
Fear not the naysayers Wild my friend, I would side with ya . I've used my suits aggressively in several situations (i.e. setting up my stealth to take a charge so I can strike first) and they have usually pulled their weight and shocked my opponents too.

What do you do not in Dawn of War? (I know I'm straying off-topic here) How do game types/opponent army choices affect your deployment?

On topic what do people think a good mixed force would be (i.e. 3 XV-8 Helios and then 6 XV-25/15's w/lotsa firewarriors etc.) I think a mixed force should lean towards more str 5 shots than anything else, like a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of str 5: str 6+.

@Knight Actual
That's the big problem with a high ROF tau army.
Stuff like Deathwing and Biker Nob Mobz (w/buried Painboy gods I hate those things :P). I just don't know if you could effectively counter those w/out a tailored list and that's why I'm asking Tau Online. I am wondering if something like the high ROF army could bring enough firepower to bear to pick apart an army like that piecemeal.

On another note I might try the Fort strategy sometime as a Hybrid variant, souds cool but I don't know how effective it'd be.
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Old 26 Mar 2009, 14:27   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: High ROF vs. High strength/AP concentration in armies

is why i have mix, then maximize their effect w/ mklight.

full PF squad minimum. then a sprinkle of marker drones.
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