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Kroot with assault weapons?
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 06:36   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Kroot with assault weapons?

I know there have been a buntch of threads on new stuff for 5th ed or speculations thereof. However, I don't think the idea of a new Kroot weapon like AP 6 Strength 4 Assault 3 with a 12" range has been mentioned. I think of it as a Kroot machine gun based on the same technology as the Kroot rifle. I also don't know if this idea is in anyway balanced, but since they are supposed to be melee based troops I always thought that an assault weapon would make sense.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 06:56   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

Assault 3 would be to much, and 12" range would be to short, imo. Assault 2 18" would be a better match, but it would also reduce one of the Kroot's better ranged advantages...

I do think Assault weapons are more appropriate for the primary CC unit of the Tau, but we do have to make sure it's fluffy and not to cheesy.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 07:55   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

I also like the idea of Assault 2, 18. It makes sense for them to be able to shoot, move, and still assault, especially since all the other infantry in the Tau arsenal (except the broadsides) has either assault weapons and jetpacks or the ability to pile into a vehicle. With 5th edition, kroot can pile into a devilfish, but only a weakened or very under-size kroot squad will fit.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 08:24   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

Frankly, I think the Kroot are almost completely perfect in my book. For one point more, we get a model who is equal or better than a base Guards man in all respects but Sv, and that doesn't count in my book since virtually all guns in the game ignore Sv5, including the ones that kill the Kroot deddest: the flamer.

Kroot Rifle is fine the way it is, I don't think they need any weapons upgrades, except possibly Pulse Rifles or the like as alluded to in the fluff, and manifested by the Shaper with the option to have a Pulse Rifle. I mean, Kroot aren't meant for head-to-head assault; they're meant to harass, claim objectives, kill Geqs, possibly heavier units with enough Carnivores, and, IF NEED BE, counter-assault or finish off a unit that must be to save another. Otherwise they just pepper at range; OH! and claim objectives; and also, counter other Infiltrators. The Kroot can't really be given any other option that won't: hurt their CC or hurt their distance firepower.

The thing the Kroot REALLY need is some kind a Ld boost or something, made possible by a squad leader that, while not bad, should really do much more for their Ld, esp., as some would argue, considering his fluff. Possiby one other thing would be options to modify some of their stats, similar to the actual Kroot Codex, but it would have to be pretty cheap to be made worthwhile (of course considering what it does: +1 T may be worth a point or two per model, but a 6 Sv should only be worth like 1 pt per 2 models, or something...
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 09:47   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

I think the kroot rifle is fine the way it is too. I would like a few options for the Kroot themselves, though:
[list type=decimal][*]Kroot Shaper can give kindred "Furious Charge" option. Shaper is too expensive/not useful as is[*]Assault grenades, frag as standard at least. Hopefully krak or emp options too.[*]Ability (upgrade) to be able to rapid fire and charge same target[*]Ability (upgrade) that gives Fleet[/list]
Much of the above, imho, would fit the fluff quite nicely, if you consider the old Kroot Merc army list GW published some time ago. I feel that the Kroot entry in our current codex to be a little rushed or 'half-baked'. Where are the evolutionary adaptations due to the Kroot physiology and diet for which they are so (in)famous?

Giving Kroot "Prefered Enemy" after their first CC victory meal in the game would be cool too... At their 1st CC victory, the kindred is considered 'pinned' as they hunker down to feast for a turn amid searing laser shots and explosions! >
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 18:48   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

I agree that the Kroot "as is" are good but I don't think they are near perfect yet. I would argue that their feildcraft should be replaced with stealth. I would like them to have an assault weapon option as well as their rapid fire weapon, similar to FW and their pulse rifle vs. pulse carbine. They need to have access to grenades like pulse, emp and frag. (The pulse and emp would be supplied by the Tau and the frag grenades are of such basic design I am sure the kroot could produce them themselves) The shaper most definitly needs to grant something like furious charge and fleet to justify his cost or access to Kroot wargear that grants such a thing.

Back to my threads point though, I would say that new kroot weapons aren't so much needed but a definent want. I still say an assault weapon makes sense and heres my second idea on one:
Kroot machine gun 18" str 4 ap 6 Assault 2 pinning (doesn't grant an additional attack like the kroot rifle)
This would not cost anything extra to switch out for the Kroot rifle, just like the carbine and rilfe for FW.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 21:08   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
I agree that the Kroot "as is" are good but I don't think they are near perfect yet. I would argue that their feildcraft should be replaced with stealth. I would like them to have an assault weapon option as well as their rapid fire weapon, similar to FW and their pulse rifle vs. pulse carbine. They need to have access to grenades like pulse, emp and frag. (The pulse and emp would be supplied by the Tau and the frag grenades are of such basic design I am sure the kroot could produce them themselves) The shaper most definitly needs to grant something like furious charge and fleet to justify his cost or access to Kroot wargear that grants such a thing.

Back to my threads point though, I would say that new kroot weapons aren't so much needed but a definent want. I still say an assault weapon makes sense and heres my second idea on one:
Kroot machine gun 18" str 4 ap 6 Assault 2 pinning (doesn't grant an additional attack like the kroot rifle)
This would not cost anything extra to switch out for the Kroot rifle, just like the carbine and rilfe for FW.
I'm sorry, but what? They're basically then going to be Dire Avengers without the Sv or transport...for TWELVE points less??? AND Pinning? I think not.

See, that's the problem with these threads, people just spout off stuff they wanna see in units, without really putting 2 and 2 together. I mean, what if you DID give EMP grenades to them all? That would be INSANE! Can you imagine 12 or 15 Kroot attacking vehicles? Infiltrating with them, or outflanking? They'd be just about as broken Genestealers with Scuttle, particularly if you also gave them Fleet! Rapid Fire AND charge? With Furious Charge? That would be the equivalent, with a full 20 Carnivores, to ONE HUNDRED ATTACKS!!! Who of you can even HOLD that many dice at once? Add on the full 12 Hounds, and you've got another 36! At S4/5! Those models would have to be about 15 or 16 points a piece to balance even remotely properly. They'd be EVEN more broken then what the Orks can shovel out, except with regards to Ld.

I think you guys are forgeting what the Kroot are and are for.
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Old 23 Mar 2009, 21:24   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrootKnife
Giving Kroot "Prefered Enemy" after their first CC victory meal in the game would be cool too... At their 1st CC victory, the kindred is considered 'pinned' as they hunker down to feast for a turn amid searing laser shots and explosions! >
I think that's an awesome idea...

I know in 3rd kroot could never sweeping advance, and so I think that if they were to do this it would only be allowed if they won in a sweeping advance, otherwise it would be a pretty bad ability for a squad of marines to run away, regroup then rapid fire them to death the next turn.
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Old 24 Mar 2009, 21:20   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimberwolfCY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
I agree that the Kroot "as is" are good but I don't think they are near perfect yet. I would argue that their feildcraft should be replaced with stealth. I would like them to have an assault weapon option as well as their rapid fire weapon, similar to FW and their pulse rifle vs. pulse carbine. They need to have access to grenades like pulse, emp and frag. (The pulse and emp would be supplied by the Tau and the frag grenades are of such basic design I am sure the kroot could produce them themselves) The shaper most definitly needs to grant something like furious charge and fleet to justify his cost or access to Kroot wargear that grants such a thing.

Back to my threads point though, I would say that new kroot weapons aren't so much needed but a definent want. I still say an assault weapon makes sense and heres my second idea on one:
Kroot machine gun 18" str 4 ap 6 Assault 2 pinning (doesn't grant an additional attack like the kroot rifle)
This would not cost anything extra to switch out for the Kroot rifle, just like the carbine and rilfe for FW.
I'm sorry, but what? They're basically then going to be Dire Avengers without the Sv or transport...for TWELVE points less??? AND Pinning? I think not.

See, that's the problem with these threads, people just spout off stuff they wanna see in units, without really putting 2 and 2 together. I mean, what if you DID give EMP grenades to them all? That would be INSANE! Can you imagine 12 or 15 Kroot attacking vehicles? Infiltrating with them, or outflanking? They'd be just about as broken Genestealers with Scuttle, particularly if you also gave them Fleet! Rapid Fire AND charge? With Furious Charge? That would be the equivalent, with a full 20 Carnivores, to ONE HUNDRED ATTACKS!!! Who of you can even HOLD that many dice at once? Add on the full 12 Hounds, and you've got another 36! At S4/5! Those models would have to be about 15 or 16 points a piece to balance even remotely properly. They'd be EVEN more broken then what the Orks can shovel out, except with regards to Ld.

I think you guys are forgeting what the Kroot are and are for.
I must voice my concern with your response. First I think you need to be more civil in your responses and quit CAPS LOCKING your words, it makes it look like you are yelling at others. Also please stop writing like we have committed a great atrocity by having a discussion on out viewpoints of what we think would make sense or be an improvement. Finally I disagree with you on a number of your points.

EMP grenades:
Currently if we were to assault the average vehicle with 12-15 Kroot they would get 36-45 attacks against the rear armor. This gives us a very good chance of inflicting noticeable damage to said vehicle. Now if we were to grant Kroot access to EMP grenades they would now be able to deal with the rare vehicle with higher then 10 rear armor and be effective vehicle hunters. Additionally, now we are spending as much on each Kroot as we do for each FW. However, those Kroot don’t have an armor save at all or the ranged combat power of a FW.

ONE HUNDRED ATTACKS:
How does fleet and furious charge translate to 100 attacks? A squad of 20 Kroot makes 60 attack on a charge normally, and with 12 Hounds added in make a total of 96 attacks. Now if you were referring to rapid firing and charging I can see your point, but that is why I am arguing for assault weapons. If we were to give the Kroot an assault weapon with one attack but took away the double weapon quality of their rifles (as I suggested) then they still only get a total of 3 attacks each per round.

15 or 16 Points each to balance the out:
A single Kroot should cost almost as much as a Space marine? With lower stats, no armor save, a water-downed bolter and a crappy form of stealth a Kroot is not equal to a space marine. Even if we allowed a Kroot shaper to grant the squad furious charge and/or fleet that would simply mean we increase the cost of the shaper upgrade not each model in the entire squad. Heck it would be best if such abilities were granted to the squad through equipment the shaper could take and would be lost if he died.

“I think you guys are forgetting what the Kroot are and are for”:
I think you, sir, have a very narrow view of what the Kroot are and are for. They are our most flexible unit in Tau codex and can fill almost any role. What has been suggested so far is an approach to figuring out how they, the Kroot, could be improved or expanded upon. My original thought for this thread was not to blather on how the Kroot suck and need to be made awesome, but simply to suggest that an assault weapon should be developed for them as an option. If an assault weapon is not in line with the Kroot and what they are for then I have no idea what would be.

Thanks for reading and sorry to all for the wall of text.
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Old 25 Mar 2009, 09:33   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Kroot with assault weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
I must voice my concern with your response. First I think you need to be more civil in your responses and quit CAPS LOCKING your words, it makes it look like you are yelling at others. Also please stop writing like we have committed a great atrocity by having a discussion on out viewpoints of what we think would make sense or be an improvement. Finally I disagree with you on a number of your points.

EMP grenades:
Currently if we were to assault the average vehicle with 12-15 Kroot they would get 36-45 attacks against the rear armor. This gives us a very good chance of inflicting noticeable damage to said vehicle. Now if we were to grant Kroot access to EMP grenades they would now be able to deal with the rare vehicle with higher then 10 rear armor and be effective vehicle hunters. Additionally, now we are spending as much on each Kroot as we do for each FW. However, those Kroot don’t have an armor save at all or the ranged combat power of a FW.

ONE HUNDRED ATTACKS:
How does fleet and furious charge translate to 100 attacks? A squad of 20 Kroot makes 60 attack on a charge normally, and with 12 Hounds added in make a total of 96 attacks. Now if you were referring to rapid firing and charging I can see your point, but that is why I am arguing for assault weapons. If we were to give the Kroot an assault weapon with one attack but took away the double weapon quality of their rifles (as I suggested) then they still only get a total of 3 attacks each per round.

15 or 16 Points each to balance the out:
A single Kroot should cost almost as much as a Space marine? With lower stats, no armor save, a water-downed bolter and a crappy form of stealth a Kroot is not equal to a space marine. Even if we allowed a Kroot shaper to grant the squad furious charge and/or fleet that would simply mean we increase the cost of the shaper upgrade not each model in the entire squad. Heck it would be best if such abilities were granted to the squad through equipment the shaper could take and would be lost if he died.

“I think you guys are forgetting what the Kroot are and are for”:
I think you, sir, have a very narrow view of what the Kroot are and are for. They are our most flexible unit in Tau codex and can fill almost any role. What has been suggested so far is an approach to figuring out how they, the Kroot, could be improved or expanded upon. My original thought for this thread was not to blather on how the Kroot suck and need to be made awesome, but simply to suggest that an assault weapon should be developed for them as an option. If an assault weapon is not in line with the Kroot and what they are for then I have no idea what would be.

Thanks for reading and sorry to all for the wall of text.
Sorry for the Caps and harsh words, its just a lot easier to hit Shift/Caps rather than take the time to bold/underline/italics/whatnot everything. Don't take it personally, unless I really am seeming like I'm trying to be scathing. It's just, I've been posting quite a bit here in the last few days, and the cumulative time it takes to properly edit everything, the effort, gets to be irritating after a while...it doesn't help at all that my job, Walmart Cashier, is probably one of the nitpickiest jobs I can think of right now, and I mean, nitpicking ain't a big deal, but when you do it 8 hours a day, with hundreds of customers and thousands of items, it takes it's toll when I come home at 11 or 12 midnight, have only a little while to read and post, and gotta be back at 9 am the next day.

About the "atrocities" thing. You have to understand, people put these kinds of things up all the time; it was particularly bad ending about two months ago, and started about 6 months before that. Usually, the suggestion in and of itself is no big deal...the problem becomes when you have tons of people without a lot of experience (in this particular thread, half; most times it's worse) that add and add and add to this stuff, without delineating anything from each other, or giving balancing points, anything really. So the only way to assume (which, given threads with this type of history, is usually correct) is that most of the posters want these things together. I mean, have you noticed that none of the mods or real veteran players of the board/site have posted here? I mean, I've been on this site for nearly 4 years, and I don't consider myself a veteran by any means: experienced? yes, but not in the sense of the word that most of the other real contributors, etc., all have 20 or 25+ Karma, a thousand posts (very few of which are filler, which is why, compared to my time here, my post count is so low), etc. There's a reason none of them usually post in these topics: it's usually pretty useless and a waste of time. But when I saw this thread, and read it over, it just really got to me. I'll show you a thread or two I've posted in before, regarding what would seem like simple upgrades, but would really have been game-breaking:

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=9370.0

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=9725.45

They are, as you will note, very old threads. One was posted before the current TE Codex. During that time, there were multiple threads basically putting forward the idea that all Tau should be BS4.

Not that big a deal at first, but if you read those threads, you'll notice that things snowballed pretty rapidly, some of which I aided.

Heavy weapons in FW squads, true Heavy weapons firing from XV8s, etc., Pinning for...Fusion Blasters...? All kinds of crap. It was why Deadnight exploded on me, and the same reason I exploded on all of you.

I mean, see, that's the thing, no Tau unit is a do-it-all, versatile unit. The Kroot may very well be the most versatile unit we have...but that doesn't mean they are actually versatile per se, just more so than most of the other units. They can take on a lot of other similar units given the right circumstances, even more expensive ones with a chance of success, but to give them some of the upgrades mentioned here would be horrendous.

I'll go through this point-by-point, as you did with me:

Quote:
EMP grenades:
Currently if we were to assault the average vehicle with 12-15 Kroot they would get 36-45 attacks against the rear armor. This gives us a very good chance of inflicting noticeable damage to said vehicle. Now if we were to grant Kroot access to EMP grenades they would now be able to deal with the rare vehicle with higher then 10 rear armor and be effective vehicle hunters. Additionally, now we are spending as much on each Kroot as we do for each FW. However, those Kroot don’t have an armor save at all or the ranged combat power of a FW.
Yes, Kroot now have a reasonable chance of taking on most vehicles, sure. Does that mean they should be able to take all of them on? No. We already have units that do that kind of stuff, ie, Stealths, Crisis, Gun Drones, Broadsides, etc. The same way? Not necessarily. Even if you did give Kroot EMP option, and took 10 of them, and paid 100 points...how often do you think they'd reach the two most likely targets with AV14 all-around: Land Raiders and Monoliths? Both can put out awesome firepower, and the Monolith, IIRC, can drop pie plates that would devastate most Kroot squads. It wouldn't even be a consideration to me. Broadsides and Railheads would just be so much more reliable. Regarding Kroot vs FW ranged firepower, Kroot are actually slightly better point-by-point. Lets take the example of Marines vs FW/Kroot, equal points (or as close as possible)

12 FW (120 pts)
12 shots at B3 = 6 hits.
3+ to wound = 4 wounds.
3+ to save = 1.33

17 Kroot Carnivores (119 pts)
17 shots at BS3 = 8.5 hits.
4+ to wound = 4.25 wounds.
3+ to save = 1.41 wounds

Provided cover is equal all-around, the Kroot have a better chance of outlasting base Marines, because FW vs Kroot are equal all-around, except for 1 point less Ld, but with 5 more models, won't have to test as often, either. The only real advantage the FWs have w/ regards to shooting is the +6" range, but in practice that doesn't come into play a great deal, at least in my experience, not the least reason of which is that Kroot can Infiltrate, negating the 6" range loss. Oh, and of course, Kroot are vastly superior in CC to FWs, but even then, they are still only mediocre compared to most true CC units.

Quote:
ONE HUNDRED ATTACKS:
How does fleet and furious charge translate to 100 attacks? A squad of 20 Kroot makes 60 attack on a charge normally, and with 12 Hounds added in make a total of 96 attacks. Now if you were referring to rapid firing and charging I can see your point, but that is why I am arguing for assault weapons. If we were to give the Kroot an assault weapon with one attack but took away the double weapon quality of their rifles (as I suggested) then they still only get a total of 3 attacks each per round.
I was not actually arguing against what you said, I was arguing against the others. However, now that you've brought it up, I still think this is not a great idea. If you did make the Kroot Rifle Assault 1, all other things the same, if you took a full squad of 20, you basically just took a 10-man squad of Orks and gave them Storm Bolters. While they still wouldn't be necessarily used as such, because of Ld issues, if playing against a weaker opponent or one more vulnerable to shooting + CC (Guardian-heavy Eldar, more basic IG, Gaunt-heavy 'Nids, some styles of Orks, etc.) than they would be pretty overpowered as well. You could change it to 18" but then you're pretty much nuked their ability to provide real ranged support and harrasement capabilities, and taken away at least a round of shooting w/ regards to defending positions and other units, all of which the Kroot are really designed and meant to do, and they do pretty well.

Quote:
15 or 16 Points each to balance the out:
A single Kroot should cost almost as much as a Space marine? With lower stats, no armor save, a water-downed bolter and a crappy form of stealth a Kroot is not equal to a space marine. Even if we allowed a Kroot shaper to grant the squad furious charge and/or fleet that would simply mean we increase the cost of the shaper upgrade not each model in the entire squad. Heck it would be best if such abilities were granted to the squad through equipment the shaper could take and would be lost if he died.
I've pretty much already addressed this, but I feel I must address further the notion of play-balancing in regards to points. Taking all the abilities together, it would certainly be 15+ points per model; given the leader and the points needed to make this happen, it would probably be so anyway, even if it were just a single model giving all that stuff. I mean, you would have a unit that can destroy any tank in the game with two decent rolls and one good roll (taken alternately), can shoot the crap out of any reasonably distanced infantry unit, fleet, so, w/ enough models, nearly as awesome as Orks in CC, then Furious Charge, so all CC is now S5 for the charge, option to switch out weapons (limit? None mentioned...) for twice the shots + pinning (no weapons w/ similar profiles have pinning at all), and this isn't worth at least 15 points? How much should it be worth? They may not have the Sv or T of a Marine, but they are superior already in almost every sense of the word; to add all that stuff on to them, would be insane. One out of all the abilities mentioned here? Yes, possibly, within reason and limits. But all of it or even just 2 or 3, all together, would be pretty crazy.

Lets take Howling Banshees as an example. 16 pts a piece. Base, vs. a base Marine squad, they are equal or worse in all their stats, however, they get power swords across the board. Have you seen what one of those squads will do to even a fully upgraded, full-10 Tac squad, assuming they arrive? And they're only 1 point more. Now, I'm not saying that all these upgrades would make the Kroot Banshees, but regarding balancing, that point cost is what's needed to make them at least relatively equal. Oh, and Banshees are Elites; you can only take 3 squads max; the Kroot you can take 5, w/ up to 32 models...

The key concept regarding Kroot is to understand them w/ regards to the flavor of the entire TE codex: CC is still a vulnerability. Kroot may be better than the rest of the entire Codex at CC, but this does not mean they are actually meant as a purpose-made CC unit. The best you can usually hope for w/ regards to Kroot regarding CC is that the rest of the army, including Kroot, will inflict enough casualties on the enemy that if CC is called for, the Kroot will be mopping up or at worst tying up, so that the win or draw is made, rather than a loss. Finally, addressing my supposed narrow-mindedness, etc., realize that I have been playing for about 5 years now, been posting longer than you, posting a bunch of stuff more or less correct and supported, and as well, am not just speaking what I myself think, but speaking what most of the "veterans" I've alluded to pretty much conclusively think regarding Kroot. I refer you to these following topics (I suggest reading this in reverse order to get a better idea/feeling of the history and development behind their use, etc.; that is, start with the last link, and work up. A couple of the links are, well, links to more links; I have however read most of the articles here at least once, if not twice.):

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=19895.0

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=33004

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=5450.0

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...94391#msg94391

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...3805#msg243805

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...3871#msg243871

So, I'm hoping that was much more to your liking and more informative. I highly recommend taking some serious time when you have it (I know, hard to come by these days...we need to be more like France and have literally like a cumulative fourth of the year off in holidays, etc.) and seriously read through and study those articles when you can; the "Important Topics" sticky, and the first link in there, one two a lot of the 3rd ed tacticas, are very much worth reading, and helped to guide and open up my own mind about how to play the army.
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