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Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!
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Old 02 Mar 2009, 22:38   #1 (permalink)
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Default Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

Hi, y'all. This is copy-pasted from ATT, where I posted this a few minutes ago. Thought you guys might want to chime in as well.



Contention: While a Twin-linked weapon can be fired without a Multi-tracker, RAW disallows the firing of a Twin-linked weapon and another weapon even with a Multi-tracker.

Premises:

1. Buying 2 hardpoints of the same weapon counts as a single twin-linked weapon.

"When a weapon is given two point values... the second [value] is for two weapons (counting as a twin-linked weapon of that type). (pg 25, TE codex)"

2. 1 hardpoint of a weapon counts as 1 Battlesuit Weapon System.

"A single-mounted weapon counts as a single Battlesuit Weapon System. (pg 25, TE codex)"

3. 2 hardpoints of the same weapon count as 2 Battlesuit Weapon System.

"A twin-linked weapon counts as two [Battlesuit Weapon Systems]. (pg 25, TE codex)"

4. A Multi-tracker does not explicitly allow two weapons to fire, but merely two Battlesuit Weapon Systems.

"[A Multitracker] enables the modell to fire two battlesuit weapon systems in the same turn. (pg 26, TE codex)"

5. A model can fire a single weapon, unless otherwise stated.

A quick glance doesn't reveal where it explicitly says this, though I'm sure its true and is implied by the rules found in the Monstrous Creature type section, where it say that instead of only being able to fire 1 weapon, they can fire 2...

Edit: "Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon. Some Models... may be able to fire more than one weapon. (pg 15, BRB)"

Argument:

6. If something counts as a single weapon, it can be fired normally, according to (5). A twin-linked weapon counts as a single weapon, according to (1). Therefore, a twin-linked weapon can fire without the need of a Multi-tracker.

7. To fire two weapons, you need an exception that allows you to fire two weapons. Thus, if a Multi-tracker allows you to fire two weapons, you can fire two weapon.

8. If a Multi-tracker only allows for a maximum of 2 Battlesuit Weapon Systems to fire and the combination of a twin-linked weapon and a single weapon counts as 3 Battlesuit Weapon Systems, then a Multi-tracker would not allow you to fire a twin-linked weapon and a single weapon together.

9. A Multi-tracker only allows for a maximum of 2 Battlesuit Weapon Systems to fire according to (4). A twin-linked weapon counts as 2 Battlesuit Weapon Systems and a single weapon counts as a single Battlesuit Weapon System according to (3) and (2) respectively, and thus equal 3 Battlesuit Weapon Systems.

Therefore

10. You cannot fire a twin-linked weapon and a single weapon together, even with a Multi-tracker.





Again, just so we're explicitly clear - for the purposes of shooting, any model can shoot a single weapon of their choice, making no mention of Battlesuit Weapon Systems. This is why a twin-linked weapon can shoot even without a Multi-tracker - counting as a single weapon, it can be fired as such. This similarly applies to Broadsides - even though their Railgun is twin-linked, it is still treated as a single weapon of that type, and thus can be fired without a Multi-tracker.

A Multi-tracker doesn't deal with "weapons" though, but rather a distinct entity known as a Battlesuit Weapon System, where a twin-linked weapon system isn't counted as one, but rather as two.

If you want to argue I'm wrong, here are a few guidelines:

1. Do not appeal to writer intent.

This should be pretty self-explanatory... the writer's intent is not known to anyone except the writer.

2. Show explicit contradictions.

To show one of my points is actually wrong, provide a contradiction in the text, either in the BRB or the TE Codex.

3. Find a FAQ entry that explicitly allows a twin-linked weapon to fire with a single weapon when using a Multi-tracker.

Whatever else they may say, a FAQ is as good as an errata - if an official GW FAQ says it works, it works, regardless of what the actual text logically states.


Thanks in advance - I figure it would be good to get the RAW as clear as possible before deciding on if a House Rule is needed.
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Old 02 Mar 2009, 23:13   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

Or not.

The reference to TL weapons counting as "two battlesuit weapons" is only in reference to how many hard points it takes up. I don't care about RAW in this case. Look at every TL weapon in the game. It counts as a "TL Bolter." Or a "TL Railgun." Not as "two bolters" or "two railguns." Sheesh, I hate RAW sometimes.

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Old 02 Mar 2009, 23:22   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

The operative word here is "Fire".

1. The Multi Tracker entry states that it "enables the model to FIRE two Battlesuit Weapon systems in the same turn".

2. The Rulebook for firing Twinlinked Weapon Systems states:

"A set of twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon of that type, but to represent their fusillade of fire you may re-roll the dice to hit if you miss.

So when you "fire" they count as one weapon.

So if you have a TL weapon and a normal weapon - you are in effect only firing 2 Weapon Systems.

The Codex states that a TLWS Counts as two Battle Suit support systems for Hardpoint Purposes, and there is a dichotomey between the MT rules (Fire 2 Weapon Systems) and the TL Section of our Codex (Counts as two Weapon Systems) - I believe that we have to excercise some common sense here.

The Post above states we cannot fire a TL and a Normal weapon with a HWMT - Becuase of the two sections above. But this is applying double logic - You either have to accept that the HWMT allows you to fire a TL weapon as 1 Weapon, and then another normal weapon (and use that as your two Battlesuit Weapon Systems) - Or you have to say that Tau Cannot have TL Weapon Systems at all unless they have a MT. (As it Counts as two Weapon Systems and the onlyway you can fire Two Weapon Systems is with a Multi Tracker).

As Tau can clearly have TL weapons and use them without the MT I have to say that the TL Weapons rule in the Main Codex has to take precedence, and that when the Weapon fires it counts as a Single Weapon system, but for Hardpoint purposes (RAI) it counts as 2 Systems. Once again GW has just worded something badly.
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Old 03 Mar 2009, 00:12   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

I don't see the reference to TL weapons counting as 2 BWSs "for hardpoint purposes" anywhere in the text.

THis means that, when firing a TL weapon on a crisis suit, you're firing 1 weapon. You're also firing 2 Battlesuit Weapon Systems, because nowhere I see in the TL Weapon text does it state "for hardpoint purposes" that would indicate the BWS isn't universal.

I also don't see any contradiction here: The BRB states you can only fire 1 weapon, unless something special allows you to fire two. A TL weapon counts as a single weapon, which means even though it also counts as 2 BWSs, you can still fire it (as there is no restriction on firing two battlesuit weapon systems so long as they conform to the only-1-weapon rule). The problem with the Multi-tracker is that it doesn't explicitly allow you to fire two weapons, but rather two BWSs (which, in the case of single weapons, takes precedence over the "only 1 weapon can fire" rule because they ARE 2 weapons).

I think the problem is that BWS is being made synonymous with "weapon", which it is not: TL Weapons are explicitly a single weapon but are treated as 2 BWSs in their entry.

I also think that GW worded this badly, but I'm not asking RAI, I'm asking RAW, and unless someone can show me where it says the "TL weapons count as 2 BWSs FOR HARDPOINTS ONLY", I'm still forced to conclude that you cannot fire a TL weapon AND another weapon using a MT.
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Old 03 Mar 2009, 00:41   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

It just strikes me odd that you are a tau player, and are trying to diminish your combat ability with RAW. By all means don't let me stop you, it just seems that you went to extensive lengths to get to where are. If anything, send GW an email, because I think its daft that you can equip yourself with twin linked and fire without a multi tracker, then suddenly equip a multi tracker and not fire twin linked weapons with other weapons. I see your point it just seems like they may have meant otherwise.
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Old 03 Mar 2009, 00:52   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

I don't mean to be a spoilsport, and this is clearly not something many (or even more than a small minority) feel is the way the game is intended to be played.

I'm just trying to establish what the RAW actually is, too see if I need to House Rule this idiocy away. If someone can prove me wrong, please, PLEASE do so - I really think the rules weren't intended to do this, they just end up doing it.
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Old 03 Mar 2009, 04:30   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

This has been addressed quite a while ago. You should have searched for it.

(I know the search function is defunct, but they have already made stickied guidelines on how to search using google).
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Old 03 Mar 2009, 04:35   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

When I've seen it answered, it was answered as if the MT's text concerned the firing of two weapons, rather than the actual text's use of BWSs.

The point is that I don't see how my interpretation can be incorrect - it seems pretty airtight.

So where AM i wrong? Which premise or point of argument do you disagree with?
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Old 03 Mar 2009, 05:50   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

Two of the same weapon count as a single weapon that is TL'd.
A multi-tracker allows you to fire two weapons.

Plasma Rifle - 1 weapon
Flamer - 1 weapon

TL Plasma Rifle -1 weapon
Flamer - 1 weapon

Multi Tracker would allow the firing of both weapons, in both cases. I would be shocked if anyone were to complain to you in a game about firing two weapons, we've been able to since the start, it's nothing new. Not to mention, who has the balls to complain about RULES to a TAU player? Lol if anyone were to call my codex cheese I'd lay them out in the parking lot.
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Old 03 Mar 2009, 06:14   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Multi-trackers, Twin-Linking, and Weapon Systems, oh my!

i've been called cheese with my ninja tau army by a Black templar footslogging army. I only shot at his dreads so that his marines did not get their special rule that allows them to take a ld and move towards the closest enemy model. It was objectives and I just went for them. He quit and said my army was cheesier than a twin lash, plague marine army with oblits up the wazzooo.
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