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Warfish still good in 5th?
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 08:24   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Warfish still good in 5th?

I was looking through my stuff today & finally found my gorram codex which had been missing for half a year. To top that off I found out I have a ready tau army to field. Ok its a mess consisting of the commander, some warriors and a few other vehicles & a broadside but it meets the 1 HQ 2 Troop requirement. (I skip around when it comes to model building.)

Anyways to the question. I'm thinking of fielding a mech tau army & I'm wondering: Is the warfish still a viable transport considering the defensive weapons rule in 5th ed?
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 09:02   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

Just give it a Multitracker and you can fire all weapons after moving for up to 6" and one after moving for up to 12". Use Disruption Pods and you have a 50% chance of surviving anything shot at you from over 12" that glances or penetrates.

Warfish is a great transport. And our only one.
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 12:09   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

I fully agreewith Watchdog on that one. Furthermore I would also add that the warfish is a slightly better option then a pinto 'fish for another good reason: Kill points.

A Regular fish is worth 2KP -1 for the fish and 1 for the drones.
A warfish is worth 1 kp.
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 12:24   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

If you are using the standard missions from the rule book Kill Points will only be important in one in three games, when you play Annihilation!

The SMS costs 20pts more and can not be fired when moving over 6".

Gun Drones are included in the cost of the DF and can be fired when moving up to 12" and you don't need a Multi-Tracker. You can detach the drones and use them to contest objectives in the other two missions.

If you have the pts spare then maybe but I can find better things to do with 20pts.

Roland
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 12:36   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffordGames
If you are using the standard missions from the rule book Kill Points will only be important in one in three games, when you play Annihilation!
True, but it is still something worth considering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffordGames
The SMS costs 20pts more and can not be fired when moving over 6".
Not completely true. Beyond 6" you can still fire 1 main weapon. So instead of using the burst cannon, you can elect to use the SMS. It does give you one extra shot, more range and you don't need LOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffordGames
Gun Drones are included in the cost of the DF and can be fired when moving up to 12" and you don't need a Multi-Tracker. You can detach the drones and use them to contest objectives in the other two missions.
Actually I'm not sure this is true. While attached they count as weapon system IIRC despite using their own BS and not benefiting from targetting array, so you would need a multitracker to use them -but I'm not sure 100% on that one-.

so if they count as weapon system: at 12" it's either the burst cannon or the drones. Not both.
If they are passenger: I'm not sure if they can shoot if the transport moves more then 6".

Again this is fuzzy so I will need to double check in BoB
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 13:16   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

The Gun Drones fire in addition to any weapons that would normally be permitted to fire.

They give you two shots at 18", with low BS, thugh Twin-linked. And they require line of sight.

The SMS add to the Burst Cannon and can hit targets in or behind any cover, regardless of any line of sight. I still prefer the SMS.
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 13:44   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boneguard

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaffordGames
Gun Drones are included in the cost of the DF and can be fired when moving up to 12" and you don't need a Multi-Tracker. You can detach the drones and use them to contest objectives in the other two missions.
Actually I'm not sure this is true. While attached they count as weapon system IIRC despite using their own BS and not benefiting from targetting array, so you would need a multitracker to use them -but I'm not sure 100% on that one-.

so if they count as weapon system: at 12" it's either the burst cannon or the drones. Not both.
If they are passenger: I'm not sure if they can shoot if the transport moves more then 6".

Again this is fuzzy so I will need to double check in BoB
No - it is not correct - the actual ruling in the Tau Codex is that Gun Drones can fire whenever the vehicle can fire.

If a Devilfish moves 12" and does not have a MT, it cannot fire any weapons, therefore the Drones can not fire either.

If it does have a MT a DF could move forward 12" and fire it's Burst - in which case the drones could fire too.

I almost exclusively use Warfish now - its just the sensible way to use them. Look at it this way, in objective missions Gun Drones can contest the objectives, at the same point there are only 2 of them and they are very very easy to kill - so while they contest they don't contest effectively (From a Devilfish), they can do the job but it is not going to be the end of your list if you dont have them.

In Killpoints those two Drones become a MASSIVE liability - Each of your Transports is worth effectively 2 Killpoints - I had a game where a Devilfish was blown up and the blast killed both Drones as well, so for 1 shot with a Melta my opponent got 2 killpoints. If you have Troops inside the Transports and the Drones each fish becomes effectively worth 3 Killpoints!! Simply put the unit size is too small and they are two easy to kill.

So in objectives games the Drones could be useful - but will likely prove ineffective, in Killpoints the drones will without doubt prove to be a massive disadvantage. Even though you only get Killpoints 1 in 3 times its just not worth the risk to include something that is of limited help and in one third of missions will be a massive hinderance!

Other Issues are Fire Power. - Anyway you look at it the Warfish has more effective firing (especially with a TA which it is wise to give it).

Normal Devilfish
Can move 6" and fire Burst and Drones - 5 shots at 18". - Hits on 4's
Can Move 12" and fire nothing. - Hits on 4's

Devilfish with Multi Tracker
Can Move 6" and fire Burst and Drones - 5 shots at 18" - Hits on 4's
Can Move 12" and fire Burst and Drones - 5 shots at 18" - Hits on 4's

Warfish (with Target Array, MT and DP).
Can move 6" and fire SMS and Burst - 3 Shots at 18" and 4 at 24" with no LOS - 7 Shots Total - Hitting on 3's.
Can Move 12" and fire one Weapon, Burst or SMS - SMS is 4 Shots at 24" range no LOS. Burst is 3 at 18". (as they are the same strength you will always chose to fire the SMS for the one extra shot). - Hits on 3's.

So - the only time the Devil Fish (with MT) out shoots the Warfish is when it moves 12 Inches and gets 1 more shot.....But lets look at this more closely.
The Warfish loses 1 shot - but is more accurate and has longer range - Its still more effective! And will on average cause more damage.

If the Fish Moves only 6"'s The Warfish will comprehensively out shoot it.

Survivability.

The Warfish (despite having the same chassis of as the DF) is slightly more resiliant - How? Weapon Destroyed Results. The Standard Devilfish can take 1 Weapon Destroyed result before it becomes immobilised, A Warfish can take 2 (SMS and Burst) and still be moving. - Its not much in the scheme of things but still another point in the Warfishes favour.

5th edition.

In 5th the Warfish has actually become more useful than the Fire Warriors inside it! Its More Accurate and More Survivable. I generally run teams of 6 FW's in a Warfish, and if they are holding an objective they do it from inside the Fish, and The Warfish can still lay down a hail of support fire if they get out.

Warfish all the way for me - Its just the superior choice in 5th edition, and Fish with Troops inside them are scoring units, which makes the investment in points worth while.
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 14:46   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

Good argument for the use of WF and if you have the pts to play with it looks the best option but when pts are tight is it worth the extra pts?

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Old 14 Feb 2009, 15:16   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

Depends on how you want your army to play as.

The Devilfish can be used as either an infantry transport or as a Troops choice light tank/infantry fighting vehicle. If the former, than obviously the points for the Fire Warriors is more important that upgrades to the 'Fish. If the latter, then points spent on the Fire Warriors become the luxury.

One question I have is where do I get the SMS options without buying 6 Sky Ray/Hammerheads?
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Old 14 Feb 2009, 15:40   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Warfish still good in 5th?

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