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Old 26 May 2005, 20:33   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Need Help!

How can i kill 2 hive tyrants before they get to me and easily kill me? Thanks for the help!
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Old 26 May 2005, 20:48   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

Shoot them. A lot.

Sorry.... I could resist though that's essentially the answer. If they're on foot, you've got a few turns. If they're flying you need to hit them hard, fast. Plasma and rail guns are your best friends - patherfinders lighting them up with marker lights will speed the process. However, considering most everything in the tau arsenal is S5 or better, even pulse rifles have a decent chance of wounding a tyrant.
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Old 26 May 2005, 21:04   #3 (permalink)
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Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

I thought that with the new nid codex winger hive tyrants were 0-1 in an army now...

Hmm, i agree that massed pulse rifle power will always be a good solution, as will a markered ion cannon IMO. With those big tough multi-wound creatures, the strength 5 pulse rifle is often one of the best choices as the sheer amoutn of shots that you can pump out (this is what makes our enemies sick!) is usually enough to either make a big dent for the bigger guns, or finish the job off!

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Old 26 May 2005, 21:53   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

Battlecraze:

Winged Hive Tyrants are so broken with their extended carapace (just wait until Wargamer see's this). It's being corrected in the new codex, as well as lowering their armor save abilities.

Currently, A Hive Tyrant that is winged, can deep strike and has really good survivability. So why are they so hard to kill? We can kill daemon princes, why not Hive Tyrants? Well, it's because we cannot insta-kill them and they're fast enough to move from cover to cover and tough enough to take a few hits. Afterall, once they reach our front line, it's done for in that regard, whether they have a single wound remaining or not (that may sound despairing, but in a general sense you could consider it true).

What can Tau do?

Well, we can either pray, try to shoot her down, try and run away, or try anything and all of the above and still have 2 of them rip through the army bit by bit.

If you have Crisis Suits with Fusion, Plasma, etc and you can deep strike them, it's a pretty good example of attempting to murder a Tyrant before they get too close. Of course, that is basically sacrificing the battle suits since something else, if not the Tyrant, will kill them directly afterwards. Railguns will do it too, but we need 4 railguns as a minimum if that's all we're shooting with, and that means we need more than 4 shots to actually hit them all on average. Seeker Missiles could be used if the Tyrant had a 3+ save, but honestly, how many double-winged hive tyrant players have a 3+ save? None. They all take that 2+ save no matter what. So seekers are literally useless for the most part.

The numbers say that anything with good strength and low AP will take down the Hive Tyrant, but most of these things will have some of the hardest time getting close enough to do it. So what else can we do?

Volume. One of the blessings in disguise about the Tau is that their weapon wounds most monstrous creatures on 5+. That's pretty good considering it's a basic weapon. So if we can mass up enough S5 shots/hits/wounds along with minor low AP attacks, we may pull off the kill in a single salvo.

Devilfish and Stealthsuits will generally be the "safest" units that are up close with the Tyrant, though both can be easily destroyed still, but they're the safest compared to our other soft units. Devilfish can carry the Firewarriors and the XV15's speak for themselves as these two units together, at maximums, can provide 47 S5 shots (including the Fish and Drones). That means we'll probably hit around 22~24 of them on average, and wound only about 7~8 times. However, that means the Tyrant just might fail a single armor save, or maybe two if we're dreadfully lucky. Not the best of odds, but it's something to consider.

A squad of XV8's will cause good damage, but with which setup?
Plasma will hit and wound 50% of the time, so 6 shots of plasma at close range will only result in about a single wound, maybe two if we're lucky.
Fusion blasters will hit 50% of the time and wound about 84% of the time, so 3 shots will be making for a single wound, maybe 2 if we're lucky.
Missile Pods will hit 50% of the time and wound about 68% of the time, so 6 shots will be making for probably no wounds at all, but a single one, if extremely lucky.

A squad of suits with Plasma and Fusion blasters has the best chance basically, making for 2~4 wounds.

Twin-linked weapons don't really add enough hits to increase our scores higher to be worth while in general.

It's funny how even with all of our great weaponry, we really can't cause more than 1 or 2 wounds on average with some of our best weapons and squads. A single Railgun will cause a wound pretty well, but that requires a single unit or more to amass that many railguns. Plasma will have to be in high supply to do the job on it's own. Fusions are great, but we simply can't get enough of them.

We really need about 3 units working together to accurately take down a single Hive Tyrant.

So now, it comes down to you Battlecraze. What is in your army list? That's what's going to be the determining factor. You may or may not have enough of certain things to pull it off as some may advise you. Or you may have the perfect setup. Who knows.

One thing to consider though, a single squad of Plasma/Fusion Blaster suits combined with a Pathfinder team's markerlights makes for a dead Hive Tyrant with extremely high odds, and it only requires two units to pull it off. Otherwise, XV15's combined with Pathfinders markerlights also can make a bigger impact than normal, but will still need help from another unit. Just a note about Pathfinders, as it's moments such as these that they can really change things because our weapons are perfect, but it's our ability to actually hit with them that slows us down so much.
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Old 26 May 2005, 21:59   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

When you deploy, how are you doing it? This would really help me out.

Are you using Stealth Suits?

Whats your army like?

Try and answer some of these and we can help more, especially the deployment thing. It's very important how you set up and where vs Nids...Consider splitting your army into 2 sections. It'd be easier if you try and answer some of these first though
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Old 26 May 2005, 22:17   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

One thing that helps also is the "Shoot the Big Ones" rule. (Is that still in the new codex?)

It lets you target their big bugs without having to make leadership tests.

In my experience against Tyranids, my Shas-O or Shas-El crisis suit usually is MVP against the hive tyrants. I haven't had much in the way of heavy guns for my army, so him with a fusion blaster and a plasma rifle is usually my first line of defense against heavies.

I haven't had much luck with the "Mass pulse rifle fire" thing, as you would have to be lucky to get one wound with a squad of 12 firewarriors (Outside of double tap range), and unless you have a way to punish it for hitting your troop lines, it will probably rush and start laying into them. 18 inch threat radius, remember that it's not just the move, it's the assault too!

I could definitely see Tyranids being a good excuse to give pathfinders a try. I could see a bug being lit up and torn to pieces, in Tau fluff fashion. ^^
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Old 27 May 2005, 08:44   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

Good is that in new codex could be only one Winget hive tyrant and that he can't take the extended carapace.

But problem is that while he can't get 2+ save from upgrade, he can get it from psychic power along with tiny but iritating 6+ invul, and i'm sure that most players will get this power.

So whille we have more option of busting Save 3+ tyrant the more problematic is that with 2+ save.

So seekers and ion are not an option as they don't penetrate theirs armor.
Rail guns are good, but thay are not suficient, as there is not enough of them mobile and the static ones can be avoided, also they can fail in hitting, wounding, ar the tyrant can save it with it's invul save.
Plasma rifles and fusion blasters are also needed but be wary that they have short range so be carefull.
Pulse rifles could be used in large numbers but they don't do much and you usually need them for different targets.

One thing that is marginaly better is Plasma turret from forge world as it gives a hammerhead more shots with good acuracy, and enough AP to do the job.

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Old 27 May 2005, 11:24   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

First, if you know he's got a tyrant, remove its main power, the ability to move from one unit to the next. I do this by fielding a lot of deep-striking units. Even if it gets on the field, make it so it has only troops, kroot, and tanks to choose from. You'll notice many will falter right here. they wnat to take out the big things, but if they can only attack a tank that moves the same as them and troops that they really don't want to fight and waste the tyrant. Then, slowly have units deepstrike, not to the tyrant, but his troops. Hopefully he will have moved the tyrant to far foward and then he has to double back around. By now its turn 3 or 4 so its pretty much dead.

i have a story using this method. My friend has a pure assualt army, so I lured all the big guys out front and pulled they Hive synapse creatures away from troops. Then as he was half way across the board I deep-striked 2 stealth teams in two lines and open fired on the troops, since they suffered 6 casualties per squad, they broke and ran into my stealth team and were killed in the crossfire. Then, since my hammerhead was usless from its weapons being destroyed I charged it right into the Carny and tyrants. Suicide? yes, but troops were there and the hammer head took out 9 more guys. Since his army is ruined and only the big ones remain, I load everyone it to the transports and motor outa there, and redepoly. O0

In the end his entire army was redused to the tyrant with one wound. to finsh it off I did the one thing no tau player should do. I assaulted it. 65 attacks from troops, elites, and HQ's means that i hit with 43, wounded with 6 and killed it with 2 ones. The tau, crushed the tyranids and lost a tank, and 13 troops.
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Old 27 May 2005, 15:01   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

As I am currently writing a article about defeating Tryanids with Tau, I will let some of my stories go:
[hr]The Hive Tyrants {rant about how big they are removed...only because it was too long! ^-^ .

When facing the Tyrant, you are looking at a living "light tank"...so treat them the same why that you take on Eldar Wraithlords; definate takes on the Hive Tyrants are the Markerlights, Seeker Missiles, Ion Cannons and Fusion Blasters (if you dare to get that close!!! )

If you are really, really frightened of them, then I suggest that you take your Markerlights and throw a few seekers at them; and by a few I mean like 6!!! But leave a markerlight handy to let an Ion Cannon or Smart Missiles to sneak in and throw some more high strength weaponry.

Remember the most important rule, however, do not concentrate all your fire at one target, for that is what the Tyranids want you to do!

[hr]Helpful? Stay tuned on TO (I sound like a commercial) to see my future arctice "Tau Vs Tryanids: The Secret of Firepower (And Markerlights!)" where I'll break down the 'Nids so that they're nothing but fat on the skillet! Later Daze!
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Old 27 May 2005, 15:16   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Need Help!

Quote:
Remember the most important rule, however, do not concentrate all your fire at one target, for that is what the Tyranids want you to do!
I disagree. One of my regulars plays Tyranids (3rd Edition) and while he is going to be changing to 4th soon(so it's gonna be a whole different ball game!) it is still in the interest of other players that I say my bit

DO NOT attack the Gaunts piece meal, same for the Stealers. If they reach you (as in make it into assault) you lose a turn of shooting or even worse, you didn't space out enough and those Gaunts consolidate into another Unit.

Best thing I find is to spread your units into 2 sides, forcing your opponent to go for one or the other. Obviously 1 side is mobile and the other isn't. Completely destroy a unit at a time, Gaunts are easy, it's the big ones to worry about. Leaping Warriors can be a problem very quickly, as can Ravenors. The really big ones, such as Tyrants and Fexes are opposites, either very fast and very slow and honestly, I don't think theres a steadfast way to deal with them, just adapt to the table.

Target priority people..destroy one threat then onto the next. But, as Au'Nat said, don't concentrate on the Fex, its so slow and in combat isn't that mean, just give it some Kroot.

I agree that the best way to kill a Tyrant is to negate it's save. Forcing masses of saves is the alternative, but you REALLY wanted that volume of firepower to go into the other smaller Tyranids. Railguns, Ion, Plasma and Missile Pods are the best. Missile pods don't negate any saves, but they have the Strength so they get the job done.

Good Luck and let's keep this going. I find that it really varies on the table and set up more than anything, apart from the wimpy invulnerable saves they have, I hope they don't get anjything more meaty
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