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tau: the warpcon post mortem
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 17:12   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default tau: the warpcon post mortem

OK, so im just back from warpcon. for those of you who dont know it, it is an irish con in the rebel city of cork. awesome place. and we just had the biggest wargaming event in ireland ever. over a hundred gamers iirc. plus then you had about 800 more people there with rpg's, ccgs and lots of other stuff that escapes my mind because i drank so much.

so, warpcon. played 5 games of 40k. they were not the usual scenarios in that your VPs were based on objectives. so the missions where you had to grab objectives were counted as 4VPs per objective held, and 1VP per objective contested. it was very well done, and very hard to win outright. and that was a good thing, because after game three most of the people halfway down the rankings were still in with a good shot of winning.

anyways, i ended up playing (1)deathwing (2)orks (3)necrons (4)deathwing (5) tyranids. won 2, lost two and drew. overall an average performance. and i think i did well considering i have not been playing tournament level games in a long while. lost out though on not getting many of the objectives.

So, what observations have i made with regard to tau:
(1) tau are no longer a tournament army. tau have some good units, but nothing that shines out as exceptional. we can't pull off anything like the 2 daemon princes with lash of submusion, 3 plague marine squads and 3 squads of 3 obliterators that makes chaos evil, for example. there were 5 tau players and none of us got into the top 10 or near it. we were all in the bottom tables actually. that speaks volumes if i may say so.

tau are good, yes. they are a good laugh and are moderately tough but if you want to win at high level tournaments, bring a different army.

some things surprised me with how well they worked. so here is a general observation on what works now with tau.

(2) Pathfinders. never leave home without them. my markerlights caused chaos. they are so bloody useful, especially with broadsides and crisis suits. plus with the undedicated transports, just give it to some fire warriors.

(3) Fire Warriors. useful, but nothing spectacular. best thing they do is ride along in devilfish and grab objectives. i did get a good round of rapid fire here and there though...

(4) Kroot. good unit. but they need kroot hounds to be effective. and big squads.

(5) Hammerheads are still quite useful, especially with disruption pods. half the time though i ended up only moving 5" to get all the benefits out of the railgun and burst cannons. gone are the days of 12" a turn.

(6) Broadsides. very effective. even if it took them 6 turns to take out a deathwing land raider (all they rolled were 3s)

(7) Unit of the game for me were crisis suits. i was shocked. maybe it was the opponents i faced, or maybe it was the tactics i used, but it was my shas'el and 3 other suits that caused most havok for me. main reason? running up my 2 devilfish and 2 hammerheads and using them as mobile cover for my crisis suits as they block LOS. it is now officially my favourite tactic, and is the one way jsj still really works.
and along with markerlights boosting their bs and reducing cover saves, their firepower was extremely impressive. especially as i could get so close and avoid the other guy's fire.
im tempted to take 2 squads of 3 crisis suits now.

but alas i am done with my tau. it is their final tournament. they are officially in retirement as i begin my 2 new armies. allied withhunters and space marines, and 13th co. space wolves using the chaos codex (until i get a space wolf codex)
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 17:32   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem


Usually when I say 'Hate to say I told you so..' I'm actually lying through my teeth, but this time I really hate saying I told you so. Between 5th edition changes in the game mechanics and the relentless advance of codex creep, the 4thEd Tau codex is really starting to show it's age. Not in a Sean Connery/3rdEd Space Wolf kind of way either.
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 17:52   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadoxRifts

Usually when I say 'Hate to say I told you so..' I'm actually lying through my teeth, but this time I really hate saying I told you so. Between 5th edition changes in the game mechanics and the relentless advance of codex creep, the 4thEd Tau codex is really starting to show it's age. Not in a Sean Connery/3rdEd Space Wolf kind of way either.
don't worry. i knew tau were not a top tier tournament army before i went. i went to warpcon (a) knowing it was not a tournament army any more and (b) that it was going to be my last tournament with tau. I'm sorry but i've played the blue buggers for 4 years. i'm tired of them, and i need something new.

but i know what you mean. tau have some decently good units (crisis suits, hammerheads, pathfinders) but nothing that shines out saying "i am spectacular". yes, their age is showing in thanks part to 5th ed, and as you say codex creep.
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Old 26 Jan 2009, 18:08   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem


It's my opinion that the acid test to replace an old codex should be when a competitive list has to concentrate near to it's entire army's worth of manpower into destroying any of the current top wonder units. Once an army has to be designed around having a chance against dealing with a HQ+Elites choice, the game balance needs a good hard shove.
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Old 01 Feb 2009, 03:52   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem

Deadnight, I think it's really good that you've shared this tourney experience with us. I think it stands as pretty objective that the Tau have been substantially weakened by 5th ed. and are deserving of some new rules.

Not trying to sound like some whiney powergamer, but I really hope people will stop saying the Tau have gotten stronger from 5th, because they haven't. I'm all for a nice, fun, Tau armylist (which I'm glad it still is, to some point), but I'm tired of people saying its overpowered or amazingly potent when it really isn't.
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Old 01 Feb 2009, 11:17   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem

Well we definately are not in anyway overpowered in 5th, or amazingly potent! - But I still say its not all Doom and Gloom. Like any army without a specific 5th ed Codex we have taken hits in certain areas, But we can still put together a competitive list - and without doubt there are some good things that have come out of 5th ed for us, just as there are bad.

We arent a powergamer army anymore (im not sure we ever were), and we have to be a lot more tactical now to get the results we want - but we have lost before we put our Troops on the table.

The way I see it is that the main "Tournament" problem for Tau is the "All Comer's" aspect. We can still put together damn good lists against a specific opponent, but that does not always translate into a list that can take on "Any" opponent. Thats what needs to be changed in future I think, some of our choices need added versaitility/redundancy - and as a scoring unit the FireWarrior is expensive and out of its leauge in a lot of situations.
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Old 01 Feb 2009, 12:20   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floobosaurus
Deadnight, I think it's really good that you've shared this tourney experience with us. I think it stands as pretty objective that the Tau have been substantially weakened by 5th ed. and are deserving of some new rules.

Not trying to sound like some whiney powergamer, but I really hope people will stop saying the Tau have gotten stronger from 5th, because they haven't. I'm all for a nice, fun, Tau armylist (which I'm glad it still is, to some point), but I'm tired of people saying its overpowered or amazingly potent when it really isn't.
are you actually having opponents complain that the TAU are too powerful?
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Old 01 Feb 2009, 12:27   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tausand sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floobosaurus
Deadnight, I think it's really good that you've shared this tourney experience with us. I think it stands as pretty objective that the Tau have been substantially weakened by 5th ed. and are deserving of some new rules.

Not trying to sound like some whiney powergamer, but I really hope people will stop saying the Tau have gotten stronger from 5th, because they haven't. I'm all for a nice, fun, Tau armylist (which I'm glad it still is, to some point), but I'm tired of people saying its overpowered or amazingly potent when it really isn't.
are you actually having opponents complain that the TAU are too powerful?
Well there has to be someone who complains that any army is too powerful, In my school we have at least one person who thinks an army is too powerful for every fraction.
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Old 01 Feb 2009, 13:18   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floobosaurus
Deadnight, I think it's really good that you've shared this tourney experience with us. I think it stands as pretty objective that the Tau have been substantially weakened by 5th ed. and are deserving of some new rules.

Not trying to sound like some whiney powergamer, but I really hope people will stop saying the Tau have gotten stronger from 5th, because they haven't. I'm all for a nice, fun, Tau armylist (which I'm glad it still is, to some point), but I'm tired of people saying its overpowered or amazingly potent when it really isn't.
well there was a 100 page thread recently to that effect. One thing i did not mention about warpcon was the charity auction. i paid a ridiculously huge amount of money (100) for a second ed. IG codex. well, it was signed by Pete Haines. ;D pride of my collection now, actually. But i was told if i ever end up in nottingham, mr.jervis johnson will try his bestest to meet up with me for thanks and a chat. i might even get a word in about tau. ;D

but as you say:
(1) tau are not stronger from 5th. they are far from overpowered.
(2) its still nice and fun. in fairness, 5th has given me the opportunity to mess up my game a bit. i was tired of shoving 3 hammerheads down people's throats. 4 LOS blocking skimmers and aggressive hammerheads are a lot of fun and something we'd never even have considered in 4th.

Quote:
Well we definately are not in anyway overpowered in 5th, or amazingly potent! - But I still say its not all Doom and Gloom. Like any army without a specific 5th ed Codex we have taken hits in certain areas, But we can still put together a competitive list - and without doubt there are some good things that have come out of 5th ed for us, just as there are bad.
indeed, its not doom and gloom. tau are still fun, and moderately powerful. but they are nowhere near a top tier army any more. we have taken more hits than boons from 5th in my opinion. as i say, tau must counter 5th edition, whilst most armies can use/adapt it to their advantage. even some armies sans 5th ed codices have gotten a boost (Space Wolves and counter attack come to mind) and even my beloved 13th company (rubbish in 4th, but now think how evil an army where everything has scouts can be.

and there is "competitive" and "competitive". compared to what some armies can pull out of their backsides, tau fall well short. marines who get to ignore the part in the rulebook about morale (chapter tactics), not assaulting after DS (vanguard veterans), not going splat after deep striking (drop pods), fleeting terminators, and basically every other rule in the game. or else taking tu'shan and allies him with flamer/melta heavy sisters of battle (everything is twin linked)

Quote:
We arent a powergamer army anymore (im not sure we ever were), and we have to be a lot more tactical now to get the results we want - but we have lost before we put our Troops on the table.
you can be as tactical as you want to be, but it does not change the fact that you are fighting an uphill battle. we have to counter so much.

Quote:
The way I see it is that the main "Tournament" problem for Tau is the "All Comer's" aspect. We can still put together damn good lists against a specific opponent, but that does not always translate into a list that can take on "Any" opponent. Thats what needs to be changed in future I think, some of our choices need added versaitility/redundancy - and as a scoring unit the FireWarrior is expensive and out of its leauge in a lot of situations.
rubbish. 2 hammerheads, 2 broadsides, pathfinders, some fire warriors, kroot and a smattering of fireknife suits. very good all comers list. but compared to other "all comer's" lists out there (2 MC lash princes, 3 plague marine squads (t5, 3+ save and FNP vs fire warriors... wtf??), 3 3 man obliterator squads, we are severely underpowered.
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Old 01 Feb 2009, 17:07   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: tau: the warpcon post mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight

you can be as tactical as you want to be, but it does not change the fact that you are fighting an uphill battle. we have to counter so much.

Quote:
The way I see it is that the main "Tournament" problem for Tau is the "All Comer's" aspect. We can still put together damn good lists against a specific opponent, but that does not always translate into a list that can take on "Any" opponent. Thats what needs to be changed in future I think, some of our choices need added versaitility/redundancy - and as a scoring unit the FireWarrior is expensive and out of its leauge in a lot of situations.
rubbish. 2 hammerheads, 2 broadsides, pathfinders, some fire warriors, kroot and a smattering of fireknife suits. very good all comers list. but compared to other "all comer's" lists out there (2 MC lash princes, 3 plague marine squads (t5, 3+ save and FNP vs fire warriors... wtf??), 3 3 man obliterator squads, we are severely underpowered.
hmmm but thats exactly my point, so I am not sure how its rubbish - Its very very easy to make a list "Tailored" against that sort of army that stands a damn good chance of winning....What is difficult is creating an all comers list that will take on that sort of army, and also do well against Nids, or Orks etc. - In a tournament setting we are underpowered for just this reason, its hard to put together a list against "All" opponents, which has the specific weaponry/battle plan you need to reliably take down a lash list/Horde List/RavenSqiug etc.

For Example, one of the people I play against reguarly is a Sisters of Battle Player (and a good one). He has created a very very powerful all comers sisters list and has been play testing it in all his recent games. - Its Nasty!. When I tailor my Tau to play against Sisters Specifically - its not that hard to beat, I have the tools and units (that my long experience of playing against SOB have shown me) I need for the job. If I play that same army with an all comers list (which I have a few times) - Its a much much much harder fight, and the Tau allcomers list you suggest above would be completely stuffed.

So while I agree with you that in a tournament/all comers setting Tau may be underpowered (depending on what sort of list you play)....(and that fact in itself is not an instant loss, if you do play tactically you do stand a chance! - its not instant lose). In a normal game setting, where you are creating a list to take on a specific army I dont see that we are underpowered at all (at least no less than anyone else without a specific 5th ed Codex), we just have to play differently to the way we did in 4th.
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